Help me intellectually debate my Tory colleague

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I'm Labour and while I don't agree with all their policies, I am a working class mum and have used/use the NHS regularly after horrific birth complications.

She is in the same boat as me, minus the both injuries, except she's voting conservative. Her arguement for voting Tory.

• things have become harder in this country under the Torries and when they came into power they said it would. Labour left us with no money and cut backs had to be made.

• She dosn't believe for a second that labour will do all they are promising now but what the Tories are stating they will do is more likely to happen than what Labour are stating.

-Labour will spend millions trying to get Internet to everyone for free by taxing all the rich people. The rich will just leave the country and then they will raise taxes on everyone else so they can continue to fund people who choose not work.

• Labour want immigration to continue how it is now, if your worried about the NHS this would cause more strain to it. Tories want a Australian style points system where we only allow people into the country with skills we need nurses, Doctors,, builders, teachers etc.

-Labour want to bring in higher inheritance tax, wedding tax, holiday tax, savings tax. They also want to get rid of marriage tax allowance.

-Corbyn has supported terrorists all of his career. He also will willing have someone as stupid as Diane Abbott the third most powerful person in the country.

I don't know where to begin. Except that I agree Diane Abbott is a raging lunatic. We both love a good debate and have said we are going to try and convince the other to vote Labour/Tory.

Can anyone help me articulate? I don't believe what she is saying with the points system and Immigration etc, but me going: 'well I don't believe that' isn't a very good counter argument. I'm not smart enough to back it up.

I basically want to debunk her point with facts but I'm not very elloquant and I'm worried I'll just BJ Bash which will just make me look silly instead of actually debating.

Your colleague is right
Why don’t you just accept you and her have different opinions and don’t discuss it

The married tax allowance is certainly not only claimed by rich SAHMs

By definition the married tax "allowance" CANNOT BE CLAIMED BY ANYONE EARNING ENOUGH TO PAY ABOVE THE BASIC RATE OF TAX

ONE spouse has to be earning less than their tax-free allowance (£12500 pa). THE OTHER spouse has to be liable to basic rate tax only

SO NOT FOR THE FUCKING RICH. FFS.

Your colleague is incorrect and a sad mixture of naive and selfish, but you'll save your sanity if you remember that you can't argue with stupid.

And this is why the OP tried to make a call to action post.

Another critical thinker...

‘I don't believe what she is saying with the points system and Immigration etc’

I cannot understand why people have a problem with wanting to control immigration. The current system we have i.e. Non-EU must get a visa etc but EU citizens can move freely is a very discriminatory policy applying not just to the UK but the whole of the EU. So if you are fortunate to be born within the EU, you can just come straight over but elsewhere in the world....

To be fair to everyone, you have 2 choices:

1. Allow everyone (globally) unrestricted access to this country or,
2. Restrict entry to people where we actually have knowledge/skills shortages i.e. a points system for example

Since it is impossible for the UK to accommodate every Tom, Dick and Harry the only option we have that is fair is #2 but only if it applies to EVERYONE regardless of whether or not you're born in the EU.

Yes things have become harder in this country under the Tories and this is not because of Labour. Your friend also needs to understand that the party she is supporting has changed from the Tory party of the past. The moderates have gone and it is now an extreme party.

There was a global financial crash. Under the Conservatives from 2010 to 2019, total gross government debt increased by £643 billion from £1.2 trillion to £1.8 trillion.

Under Conservative Coalition debt increased too.They did not focus on economic recovery. Because the chancellor prioritised deficit reduction at the wrong time this was an ill-considered and unnecessary drag on recovering.

Your friend is wrong, read this good link and explain it to her?Debt~under~the~Tories

For more on Labour and Conservative records on debt also read this...fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/

Some of your colleague's points are sound but the biggest issue is that BJ is assuming that Brexit won't have an effect so he can spend hypothetical money.

There is no way that countries like China are going to agree a trade deal with us without visas being thrown in.

Trump is under massive pressure to kerb medicine prices in the US. Getting the NHS to pay the same price for medicine as US insurance companies will make his supporters happy. Or he could get the pharmaceutical companies to freeze their medicine prices to US consumers in exchange for helping open up the UK as a new revenue stream.

Why should the poor pay for the massive spending by the previous Labour government? Why not chase the Vodafones of the world? What about changing tax laws so companies like Starbucks pay tax on UK profits?

Can we cope with threats like Russia and terrorism after we Brexit and presumably don't share information with the EU? Don't we need resources to ensure that the Troubles don't start again? Trumps's re-election in 2020 could mean his trade war with China escalating and everybody else suffering too.

If rich people were taxed more and left the UK surely there would be medium rich people happy to step into those jobs as long as their net income is more than or equal to their current wage?

Is BJ right to prevent Indyref 2? Isn't it for Scotland rather than Westminster to decide?

Why isn't BJ in the ditch that he promised to live in? Just kidding !

On immigration.. you friend is also wrong.Tell her to take an hour or so reading proper academic research.

• European migrants living in the UK contribute £2,300 more to public purse each year than the average native born adult.

• The average European migrant arriving in the UK in 2016 will contribute £78,000 more than they take out in public services and benefits over their time spent in the UK.

Tell her start by reading this.

www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent-releases/8747673d-3b26-439b-9693-0e250df6dbba

Yes things have become harder in this country under the Tories and this is not because of Labour.

Things have become harder because the country doesn't reset itself after every election, add on top of that globalisation etc etc then you cannot fully blame the tories either.

It's a grey area and one side pretending things would be different under a different coloured tie are just as lack of thinking as those who read the daily mail and pretend it is all the immigrants fault.

There was a global financial crash. Under the Conservatives from 2010 to 2019, total gross government debt increased by £643 billion from £1.2 trillion to £1.8 trillion.

Someone who political tub thumps should know the difference between defecit and debt, they would also not try and spin some political point scoring under the pretense of a balanced reply.

This thread is really highlighting all the critical thinkers, maybe you should highlight the factcheck on the recent labour manifesto for balance..

Or here's a novel idea - people can arrive at different conclusions and it's not a good idea to lecture and sermonise.

I have several siblings, we are not a hive mind, we all vote according to our own beliefs and viewpoints. Some are Labour, some Tory. Half voted leave, half Remain. No-one has gone NC yet nor has anyone abused or derided another.

Live and let live I say. Tolerance. Freedom to vote how you choose.

Let's just get Brexit done is a stupid slogan. When (if?) we leave on 31st January, we'll be starting a process that will take decades to complete (there are a lot of countries in the world)

She's right. Vote Conservative. The NHS isn't going to find itself - we need the tax from the rich to pay for our welfare state, something Corbyn doesn't understand.

While I do see your point @Justanotherlurker, in my experience, many people have chosen their 'side' and are too closed-minded to listen to any other point of view. Which is a particular shame if they have supported any political party for any length of time, as most of those have changed beyond all recognition in the last ten years.

He also will willing have someone as stupid as Diane Abbott the third most powerful person in the country.

This comes up on every election thread. So instead of Abbott we have Priti Patel, a woman who was forced to resign from Theresa May's government after having unofficial meetings with foreign politicians when she was supposed to be on holiday. And this person is in charge of national security?! That's not to mention her opinions on the death penalty.

I quite like my Freedom of Movement too, I'm not particularly thrilled about the government removing freedoms from its own citizens and spinning it as a good thing.

Under the Conservatives from 2010 to 2019, total gross government debt increased by £643 billion from £1.2 trillion to £1.8 trillion

Because Labour left the coalition government with a £103 billion deficit ! You cannot get rid of it overnight without cutting back on things. Yes the austerity went on for too long but without the cuts, this country was bankrupt. The government would not have been able to borrow at low interest rates without showing it was doing something about the deficit (similar to why people with good credit can get cheaper loans)

If rich people were taxed more and left the UK surely there would be medium rich people happy to step into those jobs as long as their net income is more than or equal to their current wage?

I take it that you're aware that the top 1% of earners contribute 14% of national income (yes, 14%). If those people leave the country, many will also be in a position to take their businesses with them (we are much more of a service economy now) so some other country will get the jobs and people in this country end up unemployed. Not only does the tax take go down but the Universal Credit bill goes up!

You don’t need to debate her. Listen to her and accept a difference of opinion.

He also will willing have someone as stupid as Diane Abbott the third most powerful person in the country

Anyone noticed that there has been VERY little seen of her during this campaign? I wonder why...

It's unlikely that either of you will change the other's opinion. I would agree to disagree here. Not worth potentially creating an awkward work environment "debating" politics, IMO.

For the posters who have misread my OP,

I will clarify: my colleague and I arent arguing. No one's trying to turn or sway anyone. No one is unaccepting anyone views. We both love a friendly debate and it's really interesting to hear other side's and educate each other on other ideas and opinions. Without mud slinging and name calling. A strange concept to some of you, I know.

Which is why I was asking for some help to articulate. I don't want to bash her thoughts, as she doesn't want to bash mine. We want to enlighten each other and learn.

HTH

Apart from being rude to the people who have responded to your post, you've also contradicted yourself. Your OP states that you're trying to get each other to vote the other way and you've just come back onto the thread to say you're not trying to sway anyone.

If you're unable to articulate why you don't believe your friend's claims, I doubt anyone else will be able to help you 'debate' the issues.

Yes the austerity went on for too long but without the cuts, this country was bankrupt.

Yeah, that's not how economics works. It's not like budgeting your household income - it's really not.

Anybody that is still going around saying that Labour caused the global recession should probably think about changing their identity or something, because people must be laughing at you behind your back. Especially if you're spouting this nonsense whilst belittling others for their views, like you're the new bloody speaker of the house or something.

I kind of understand rich people who vote Conservative. I never could - I'd rather pay a bit extra, and have my family live in a happy and fair society, with equality of opportunity, and no starving kids or people on the streets. You're never going to be taxed so much that you're not well off anymore. Corbyn's tax plans are really nothing unusual when compared to the rest of Europe. But hey, some people are selfish.

What I don't get is when my peers tell me they're going to vote conservative - Young, often single, mums, working every hour to raise their children. How in the world do you think the Conservatives are going to benefit your family? Have they done anything to improve your life in their last 10 years of power? Or have they just made things a whole lot worse for the most vulnerable groups amongst us?

Corbyn's ideas aren't revolutionary. The MSM have just done a good job in convincing the 'plebs' that this is the case - and I wonder why they might have a vested interest in keeping him out of power. Can't have their billions decreasing, can they? So they chuck out a few more articles on immigrants, benefit scroungers and Jeremy's wonky glasses, and people just lap it up.

Gosh, Russian shills got busy on here quickly.

OP ignore anyone without a posting history or who only post to praise the Tories.

As a Mammy to a child with cancer who is literally needlessly crying in agony this evening because there is only one nurse for the whole ward tonight, thank you for caring about the lies being pedalled. Keep asking for answers - it’s the boy thing that might stop the purposeful running of the NHS into the ground.

Nope, the cuts completely destroyed the economy, finished it off. The state the tories have made of the economy is a scandal.

Time to stop lying.

'Labour not responsible for crash, says former Bank of England governor '

www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/29/labour-government-not-responsible-crash-bank-england-governor-mervyn-king

'The Conservative party has been disastrous for the economy, and we are £100bn poorer because of it'

www.independent.co.uk/voices/conservatives-austerity-economic-effects-uk-households-poorer-a8803691.html

@lonelyplanetmum this does not take into account funding for dependants who will also be using public services.