Help me intellectually debate my Tory colleague

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I'm Labour and while I don't agree with all their policies, I am a working class mum and have used/use the NHS regularly after horrific birth complications.

She is in the same boat as me, minus the both injuries, except she's voting conservative. Her arguement for voting Tory.

• things have become harder in this country under the Torries and when they came into power they said it would. Labour left us with no money and cut backs had to be made.

• She dosn't believe for a second that labour will do all they are promising now but what the Tories are stating they will do is more likely to happen than what Labour are stating.

-Labour will spend millions trying to get Internet to everyone for free by taxing all the rich people. The rich will just leave the country and then they will raise taxes on everyone else so they can continue to fund people who choose not work.

• Labour want immigration to continue how it is now, if your worried about the NHS this would cause more strain to it. Tories want a Australian style points system where we only allow people into the country with skills we need nurses, Doctors,, builders, teachers etc.

-Labour want to bring in higher inheritance tax, wedding tax, holiday tax, savings tax. They also want to get rid of marriage tax allowance.

-Corbyn has supported terrorists all of his career. He also will willing have someone as stupid as Diane Abbott the third most powerful person in the country.

I don't know where to begin. Except that I agree Diane Abbott is a raging lunatic. We both love a good debate and have said we are going to try and convince the other to vote Labour/Tory.

Can anyone help me articulate? I don't believe what she is saying with the points system and Immigration etc, but me going: 'well I don't believe that' isn't a very good counter argument. I'm not smart enough to back it up.

I basically want to debunk her point with facts but I'm not very elloquant and I'm worried I'll just BJ Bash which will just make me look silly instead of actually debating.

As a Mammy to a child with cancer who is literally needlessly crying in agony this evening because there is only one nurse for the whole ward tonight, thank you for caring about the lies being pedalled. Keep asking for answers - it’s the boy thing that might stop the purposeful running of the NHS into the ground.

 I'm so so sorry.

This makes me so angry. Why do people care more about fucking Brexit than they do about actual real people in desperate need, like Somerville and her child? Why, when faced with that heartbreaking photo of the 4yo on the hospital floor earlier, is Boris still whining on about Brexit? Why are society's priorities so so skewed?

Errr yes the Oxford study upthread does take into account migrants and their children's use of public services. EU migrants gave far more than they took out because they were educated elsewhere so not cost there, and they mostly move on so there's no old age cost.

Like it or not EU citizens were a significant net boost to our economy. Anyway it's academic now as EU migration here has plummeted. It's been replaced by non EU people, mostly from Asia.

Thanks so much for your replies. I have taken points and facts, research and links and put them to her to tackle each point. She loved it. We both absolutely love talking about politics and are really enjoying putting our points across.
However she has come back to me with this:

1. things have become harder for men and women. But some of the services that have been cut back wasn't being used to their full potential. Sure start centers for example, we had four now only two. They don't get used, I use to go to them and would be lucky if four people turned up. I can't speak about all of the issues but the cut backs that have been made haven't affected me negatively.

2. Hard Brexit would make things harder but in the long run better. There is no point to Brexit if you only trade with EU still,we might as well remain a member. While all these are true we have on of the highest economies in the world. Living wage was introduced by Tory. The reason child poverty has became a thing now is due to parents alot of the time(not all). Labour belive in hand out while I don't. Tories cut child benefit to anyone who has more then two children. Which means people have more children, can't afford them and have to rely on food banks. I agree with the two child benefits cut.

3. I have read about a 70s labour government - this country was in a lot worse state. Bins not being collected, dead bodies piling up, no money. The Tories came in the Thatcher to fix it. Labour manager to get back in ran out of money again, sent us to wars we didn't need,cameron had to come in to fix it. Corbyn would get rid of our military and have no nuclear defence. He can't even answer if he would fire back at a country that fired at us.

4. the quality of the Internet will be so low. Most houses have Internet already. Labour claim it will help house hold bills but the Internet is the lowest one. The tax we will end up paying to pay for everyone to have Internet will be more expensive than the bill currently is. The IFA have stated Labour can not afford all these things.

5. If the rich get taxed stupidly high there is no drive to be rich. There is drive to be rich and hide it away. And if all the middle rich do step up but for same money. Who can Labour tax then?

6. immigration would not stop but with the tories it would be controlled. We would be able to recruit nurses, doctors to help the NHS. How about the immigrants that claim benefits for their kids that are in other countries and send it back to the country? That's wrong and money leaving our economy not to return.

7. We have a badly designed points system. We have open borders with the EU which allows free flow migration. In my opinion we would cut immigration in half strat away. Nothing would ever convince me that's wrong.

8)i don't know anything about UDA to comment. I do hate Corbyn with a passion. He campaigned to leave the EU most his career. Now to try and get in power he won't state his stance.

Jenpop234 is that you DS? I know it isn’t but that it’s exactly how I would describe our household with the liberal Christian Mum and Conservative atheist Dad. DS from a young age was interested in current affairs and would debate freely when we had friends from work round for dinner from about age ten.

Her point at the end of her first paragraph is everything I loathe and despise about Tories - I'm alright Jack so fuck everyone else. She's a selfish, self serving cunt after that.

She loved it. We both absolutely love talking about politics and are really enjoying putting our points across.

You're not putting your points across though.

What is the point of this? There's a 99.99% chance that neither of you are going to change your mind.

What is the point of this? There's a 99.99% chance that neither of you are going to change your mind. Erm... that's commonly known as a discussion. Often had between freinds...

I have not read the whole thread, but OP, what is the matter with you? Everyone uses their vote how they wish. I recycled my postal vote because I could not in good conscience vote for any of them. I would not expect a colleague to pry or preach to me about it. It’s my vote and my right to do with it as I please. Leave her in peace to use her vote how she wishes!

She needs to do her own research and look beyond the end of her nose.

That really sums up the Tory voter for me. Literally unable to appreciate that other people are genuinely struggle.

As for the nonsense about labour spending all the money - have they forgotten northern rock, the credit crunch and the Lehman brothers? Have they literally forgotten?

TIme for the super rich who destroyed the economy to pay their share, the poor cant take the burden any longer

The super-rich won't hang around to 'pay their share'

Surely better some tax revenue than none?

Ask her why the Conservative manifesto only covers the first twelve months after the General Election. This is highly unusual - what have they got up their sleeves that they don't want people to know about until after they have cast their vote? And, all other considerations aside, why would anybody vote for a party that is asking for a blank cheque?

Erm... that's commonly known as a discussion. Often had between freinds…

From the OP We both love a good debate and have said we are going to try and convince the other to vote Labour/Tory.

It's not really a discussion, OPs friend makes their points and then OP has none of her own so comes here for backup.

the 70s thing is always trotted out. The chaos actually started under the tory government of the decade. Labouu were hardly even in. How did Thatchers goernment stop industrial crises exactly?

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/our-recollection-of-the-1970s-is-pure-thatcherite-propaganda-10445868.html

the 'living wage' is a complete con and it makes me angry. It was just a renaming job, they raised the minimum slihtly and renamed it. It was labour who introduced minimum wage, to the complete opposition from the conservatives.

There is no sensible argument that hard brexit will be of any benefit. None. Where are all these companies dying to move here rathar than packing up and leaving?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/03/no-deal-brexit-crashing-out-uk-europe

The rich threaten to leave every election. Yet to happen. People dont seem to realise, everybody cant be rich. If we were, the value of everything would go up. People being rich relies on others being poor and the wealth inequality in this country is a disgrace, commented on previously by the UN. We're supposedly the 5th richest coutry in the world but have 40% of children in poverty. Does it soond like their tax is helping now? they barely pay any as it is.

The tories have failed to control immigration for 10 years, why would they stat now? theyve missed every cap they set.

The quality of the internet will be relatively high. Thats the point. It now an essential wether moaners like it or not.

Numerous economists have signed a letter saying labours sending is planned and possible.

Why did mothers suddenly become awful in 2010 when the tories came in?

Why would we be able to recruit drs and nurses? why would they come here anymore?

Nobody is suggesting 'stupidly high tax'. A fair burden is being suggested. Thatcherrite economics has failed and is fuelling nationalism worldwide.

Corbyn is not the Labour part. My local labour MPs are exceptional

Oh my goodness -your friend?!

Child poverty is due to parents? What with 4 million kids in poverty... that's more than 4 million failed parents???? assuming two parents for at least some of them? Anyway if some parents do have problems say mental or physical health doesn't the rest of society represented by the state have a responsibility?

Hard Brexit would make things harder but in the long run better.

The government's own reports, as well as over one hundred experienced economists say it will be worse. No positive forecasts have been produced period. Other than Rees Mogg guessing in 50 years it may pay off? We were the 5 th richest country. No one has said leaving the EU will magically ascend us to 4th,3rd,2nd or 1st place.

There is no point to Brexit if you only trade with EU still,we might as well remain a member.

Well yes exactly.

Incidentally remind your mate that we didn't only trade with the EU. As members, the decades of joint statesmanship had produced free trade deals covering more than 70 countries. As a member we had unrestricted access to the many major worldwide markets without having to pay tariffs. The size of the market we had access to was valued at € 3 936 Billion (the figure is based on the sum of exports and imports for EU when it included us from 2018).

Then the super rich can fuck off and stop holding us to ransom, let us be able to afford to live and housing in our own bloody country. They barely pay tax as it is.

1. things have become harder for men and women. But some of the services that have been cut back wasn't being used to their full potential. Sure start centers for example, we had four now only two. They don't get used, I use to go to them and would be lucky if four people turned up. I can't speak about all of the issues but the cut backs that have been made haven't affected me negatively.

*so it is better to cut them so people can’t access them at all?
I’m pleased the cuts haven’t touched her personally, so she can’t have use the NHS in the last 9 years, can’t have a child in a state school, or wanted to use a public library or leisure centre. Or she can’t have even gone Christmas shopping and walked past the many homeless people on our streets.

Or do the facts of soaring poverty, more children homeless at Christmas, the fact that we now have more foodbanks in Britain than we do McDonald’s. Do these facts not impact on her negatively. Or does she really not care? *

2. Hard Brexit would make things harder but in the long run better. There is no point to Brexit if you only trade with EU still,we might as well remain a member. While all these are true we have on of the highest economies in the world. Living wage was introduced by Tory. The reason child poverty has became a thing now is due to parents alot of the time(not all). Labour belive in hand out while I don't. Tories cut child benefit to anyone who has more then two children. Which means people have more children, can't afford them and have to rely on food banks. I agree with the two child benefits cut.

3. I have read about a 70s labour government - this country was in a lot worse state. Bins not being collected, dead bodies piling up, no money. The Tories came in the Thatcher to fix it. Labour manager to get back in ran out of money again, sent us to wars we didn't need,cameron had to come in to fix it. Corbyn would get rid of our military and have no nuclear defence. He can't even answer if he would fire back at a country that fired at us.
   As a previous poster stated the Strikes of the 70’s happened under Tory and Labour governments. The comment about Corbyn getting rid of the military is so ridiculous. Corbyn would be Prime minister not a dictator there would be no way that he would get rid of the military, and nothing he has ever said has indicated that. What he has said is that he wants to fully support veterans and insure the services are there for current military personnel, such as adequate metal health services for those that require it. These are currently deeply underfunded and those that do want access often cannot

4. the quality of the Internet will be so low. Most houses have Internet already. Labour claim it will help house hold bills but the Internet is the lowest one. The tax we will end up paying to pay for everyone to have Internet will be more expensive than the bill currently is. The IFA have stated Labour can not afford all these things.

The Tory government’s have done a very good job of making the general public fear anything that might actually benefit the vast majority. The Tories opposed the inception of the NHS

5. If the rich get taxed stupidly high there is no drive to be rich. There is drive to be rich and hide it away. And if all the middle rich do step up but for same money. Who can Labour tax then? *Labour are only stating that they will raise corporation tax to 26%, this is lower than France and Germany. Inequality has grown in this country so much that something has to be done. What does your friend say is the Conservative’s answer to this?

6. immigration would not stop but with the tories it would be controlled. We would be able to recruit nurses, doctors to help the NHS. How about the immigrants that claim benefits for their kids that are in other countries and send it back to the country? That's wrong and money leaving our economy not to return.
   Thousands of staff have already left the NHS and returned to their Home Counties following Brexit. The NHS is also currently terribly underfunded and staff morale low, why is she so certain we will be able to recruit staff from abroad?
   Also the point about immigrants sending benefit money to families- where is her evidence about this? I would be asking to see some and from the Daily Mail online

7. We have a badly designed points system. We have open borders with the EU which allows free flow migration. In my opinion we would cut immigration in half strat away. Nothing would ever convince me that's wrong.
   she previously mentioned that Tory cuts have had no negative impact upon her. What negative impact have people from other countries coming to live and work in the Uk had, that she feels so strongly about this. Or is she just Xenophobic?

8)i don't know anything about UDA to comment. I do hate Corbyn with a passion. He campaigned to leave the EU most his career. Now to try and get in power he won't state his stance.
Maybe before voting read about UDA.
And what does she think about Johnson’a comments about single mother, the working class,Muslim women ... does she feel happy to support and vote for a prime minister whil holds these views?

Haven't you and your colleague got any work to do today

Why not get your colleague to post on here if they want to discuss topics with people who can back up their beliefs?

It's not really a true debate if they're having to wait on you to secure the "answers"?

All this debate shows is that there are two different camps of thinking in politics about the best way to do things.

Neither is necessarily wrong, and neither is likely to be right about everything.

I prefer to look at data, listen to experts and make an informed opinion for myself rather than vote based on what my friend 'thinks will happen if X'. I'm also not a big fan of people waving their arms about things that happened in the 70s as if that's relevant to the world today.

I think I'll vote Labour this time around. I don't mind moderate conservatism and could be convinced to vote for it (I voted for Cameron - as a student!), but I cannot bring myself to give my vote to Brexit and BoJo and this current government whose record for the last 9 years has been appalling and have shown themselves to be nothing but liars, and not even good ones. I don't wholly support the Labour vision and parts of it I don't think will work, but that's the nature of the beast.

Oh and a big NO to Diane Abbott bashing. Not when the Tory men have been allowed to get away with howler after howler caused their sheer arrogance and incompetence.

The simplest policy is to not discuss politics with someone polar opposite. You will not convince them nor they you. No clever articulation will make a difference. When will people learn ? There is no right or wrong answer, there are opinions, and facts that wll support one side or a nother. Do you want to make enemies? I may be getting old but one thing I have learned is that people are not interested, more about point scoring. You will not win

Her points are really good though !

Show her this:

twitter.com/xandvt/status/1199295936968691712?s=09

Her points are terrible and domonstrably false. Cant blame her though, the newspapers are full of this shite. What this country could acheive with a proper press.

Labour have said high taxes and high borrowing.

The last time a Labour government got into power promising massive spending and a “fully costed” budget the country was broke within 2 years and had to go to the IMF for a handout (1970s).

As for the NHS - McDonnell clarified he wants the workers to be on a 4 day week - so a 20% rise in wage cost on that alone, but he’s also promising wage hikes on top of all that for the entire public sector.

This will clearly result in inflation, meaning the NHS will be much less able to afford drugs from overseas - and any other imports from medical devices to ambulances etc. So the NHS will be worse off under Labour.

The second a Corbyn victory is announced, all inwards investment in the UK will cease, since Corbyn plans to confiscate 10% of listed companies.

There will be a run on the pound as billions flow out at the touch of a phone screen.

Ask yourself to identify

• which regime Corbyn has supported that has been economically prosperous
• which Corbyn-favoured regime allows freedom of speech (Clue - not Iran, Hamas, Cuba or the USSR)

The Guardian called Corbyn a fool over 20 years ago, they weren’t wrong.