To be horrified at the abuse towards Green Party candidate who said he wanted to ban halal (non stunned) slaughter?

[FreshFreesias]

To be horrified at the backlash against Green Party candidate who said he wanted to ban halal (non stunned) slaughter?

Jonathan Bartley of the Green Party, was asked in an interview what he thought about halal slaughtering methods (where animals are often not stunned so are fully conscious when slaughtered). Quite reasonably, considering the party is meant to be pro animal welfare and that he is Vegan, he said personally he’d like to ban it.
There was a big outcry and calls for him to resign for Islamophobia. However he was asked about halal not kosher (which also requires animals not to be stunned prior to slaughter) and no doubt he would have decried any slaughter that requires animals to be slaughtered without stunning, whether it was kosher or halal.

This is a bit like campaigning against bull-fighting and being accused of racism against Spanish people.

Worst of all, when he was criticised, he back-tracked and explained that the Green Party supported kosher and halal slaughtering methods, so a bit of a 360 degree turnaround. Other Green Party apparatchiks then came aboard to grovel and apologise on his behalf.

I remember when the Green Party supported animal welfare and to find them going against recommendations from Compassion in World Farming and the RSPCA, who insist that stunning animals before slaughter takes away some of the pain from this unconscionable process, is very depressing.

Slaughterhouses are already so poorly regulated that to deny animals some relief by rendering them unconscious before they are killed is surely a terrible abomination. I do wish to respect all religions but I am disappointed that animal welfare is being so disrespected.

@frostedviolets i think we might have cross posted but to be absolutely clear, it's not, gas killing is how most poultry in the UK is killed, please see my post above with source.

just looked it up and you are also not correct that electric water bath stunning is the most common slaughter method. According to the RSPCA, 71% of poultry are killed using gas and water bath stunning is not recommended as it is especially inhumane

Not according to the HCA although you are right, the RSPCA do now claim most are gassed as a means of killing.

But there appears to be only one stun method available for poultry according to the RSPCA page which is the bath.

So, halal slaughterhouses if they want to appease and pre stun, can only use the bath it looks like

It's hopeless trying to reason with these people.

Handy tip for you OP - do your research before arguing against something. Make sure your resources support your argument, not your opposition's

Chickens "stunned" for halal slaughter aren't stunned at all, they are paralysed by passing them through an electric water bath.

Tell me how that differs for non halal? Clue: it doesn't - the above is the standard method of chicken slaughter in the U.K.

@tichy
I am not setting myself up as any kind of expert but as an animal lover am glad I have got a debate going.

Many on this thread have far more expertise than me, especially @Sssneks amongst many others, for whose input I am very grateful.

Thx for your input anyway.

Tell me how that differs for non halal? Clue: it doesn't - the above is the standard method of chicken slaughter in the U.K.

That has certainly always been my understanding.

Though I have done some reading on the RSPCA website after a PPs comments and it appears that now, the more common method of slaughter appears to be gassing but the only UK method of stunning poultry appears to be the water bath as UK law apparently requires that gassing cannot be used purely for stunning thus couldn't be used for Halal.

Leaving the water bath as the only option for 'stunned' halal.

But certainly for a long time water bath has been the main UK method, so halal slaughterhouses really haven't been doing anything much different when it comes to meat

Over 85% of halal meat follows normal british slaughter standards

The RSPCA disagrees with your figures...

"In the UK, 58 percent of Halal meat comes from animals which have been stunned before slaughter and certified Halal."

Because I don't want to risk eating some of the 42% that isn't stunned first, I steer well clear of it unless it is going to cause offence to a host.

@titchy that's not true, gassing is the preferred method according to the RSPCA who are quoting the food standards agency report from 2013. If you have a better source, I'd be happy to read it.

@frostedviolets Gas killing causes loss of consciousness before death, which is the aim of stunning. It is not perfect either but far more humane than water baths which do not stun at all.

Just to add, for what it's worth, @frostedviolets, I don't disagree with your concerns about the halal meat issue being piggypacked as an excuse for xenophobia.

But the facts are that not adequately stunning an animal (ie rendering it insensible to pain) prior to killing it is cruel. Electric water baths are cruel.

A person may not have good intentions, but unfortunately beliefs do not mean anything to the animals who die in fear, bleeding to death while able to feel pain.

To be clear, I'm a vegan. I personally think all animal slaughter is morally abhorrent, as is the dairy and egg industry. My wish would be to see mass industrialised slaughter banned entirely. But since that isn't realistically going to happen any time soon, all I can keep doing in the short term is keep campaigning for tighter animal welfare legislation in slaughterhouses, at least until society hopefully reaches a point where it's ready to put all of this barbarism behind it completely.

If people insist on mass breeding and slaughtering sentient beings "because they taste good" then the least we can do is legally minimise how much they're being tortured to death in the process.

I wonder if those attacking him felt the same about the hunting ban. Same principle - one persons conception of animal rights vs another person’s deeply embedded cultural practice.

Islam is a religion not a race so how can someone be racist towards a religion?
Barbaric and cruel slaughtering of animals. I think it too should be banned.

@Waymere98 that old chestnut? Yawn.

The RSPCA article is grossly misleading (and inconsistent with their statements elsewhere).

The RSPCA Article referred to by OP as saying 58% of halal slaughter is 58%, implying that 42% is not, is wrong and shows the RSPCA in a poor light (www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/slaughter/religiousslaughter).

The source for the RSPCA statistics was the Food Standards Agency (FSA) report on slaughter methods in England and Wales 2018, which was published in February 2019,

This government report certainly does not say that 42% of halal meat is non stunned!

In fact was it says about halal unstunned meat is as follows:

• cattle

stunned 81% unstunned 19%

• sheep

stunned 65% unstunned 35%

• goats

stunned 80% unstunned 20%

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/778588/slaughter-method-survey-2018.pdf

Or, as the RSPCA, themselves say in another report:

Over 80 per cent of Halal slaughter is pre-stunned in the UK
More than 900 million farm animals are slaughtered for meat in the UK every year. The vast majority are pre-stunned before slaughter to render them unconscious until death supervenes.

European and UK legislation requires all animals to be pre-stunned before slaughter. However, exemptions are allowed which permit non-stun slaughter for religious purposes e.g. for Muslim and Jewish communities.

It is important to note that over 80 per cent of Halal slaughter, the method used by the Muslim religion, is pre-stunned in the UK.

news.rspca.org.uk/2014/05/01/supporting-non-stun-slaughter-petition/

How the fuck can the RSPCA get away with grossly misrepresenting a government Food Standards Agency? And, indeed, an article they previously wrote a few years back, quoted above?

"I wonder if those attacking him felt the same about the hunting ban. Same principle - one persons conception of animal rights vs another person’s deeply embedded cultural practice."

Last time I checked, fox hunting was a barbaric sporting activity not comparable to a deeply rooted conviction that eating meat that has had it's blood drained away before it is allowed to coagulate is more healthy.
But of a false dichotomy don't ya think?

I had a bold fail above when quoting the RSPCA

Let me requote

Over 80 per cent of Halal slaughter is pre-stunned in the UK
More than 900 million farm animals are slaughtered for meat in the UK every year. The vast majority are pre-stunned before slaughter to render them unconscious until death supervenes

Shame the RSPCA now chose to mislead

An animal being killed for consumption is exactly that - an animal being killed.
Regardless of how it’s slaughtered.
Majority of places serve halal meat but don’t even advertise it. Also all the Indian places and majority of takeaways are all halal too.

An animal is being slaughtered for consumption regardless of whether it is halal or not. If you eat meat does it really matter?

Unless you’re in the US and live in a stage where you can pick up roadkill.

Isn't it funny huh? I never see as much vitriol and frothing at the mouth about other animal welfare issues. I wonder what the connection is...

FreshFreesias Sat 30-Nov-19 19:44:57

I think the Green Party's attitude is disgusting.

they don't care about animals and no doubt support transwomen playing on women's sports teams.

They are sacrificing their principles upon the altar of political correctness.

__

Name change fail, OP?

Of, and for spent hens: it's 82% stunned

Ha - and there are no halal slaughtered turkeys! (or pigs)

@flashbac - let's call it for what it is: thinly disguised islamophobia and racism

All the meat in Dubai is halal.
And Egypt.
And Turkey.
And Morocco.

Or is halal meat not a problem when on holiday?

@ims0rrydarlin - agree. I think there is a view that non Moslem slaughter is all cuddles and soft music but that that Moslem slaughter is barbaric like they are

(that was in response to your post 23:35)

@PickAChew it does seem like OP tried to NC

They are sacrificing their principles upon the altar of political correctness.

Ah PC gone mad! Bingo!

@Aridane

I might have missed something but I'm struggling to find those precise figures in the report you linked, even down to doing a ctrl+F on the precise individual figures and getting nothing. Which page are they from?

Also, I think part of the problem is a lack of agreement on what actually constitutes effectively stunning an animal. I would submit that the definition of stunning has to be a method by which the animal is rendered unconscious prior to killing. The approved halal methods of stunning are (to my knowledge), electric water bath for chickens and electric tong stunning for larger animals. These are two of the least effective methods.

Water baths for chickens involve shacking them upside down and dunking them in a bath with an electrical current whicn will paralyse them while they are still able to feel pain. Then their throats are slit. It is needlessly cruel.

Electric tong stunning is basically applying an electrical current spanning the brain to knock the animal out. It is fraught with difficulty because of the need for exact placement and even when done correctly unconsciousness is brief, so if animals are not killed within an insanely short time after being stunned (Compassion in World Farming recommends 15 seconds) then the animal can and often will regain consciousness while having its throat slit or while it is bleeding to death.

I don't consider either of those methods to meet any practical definition of ensuring that the animal is rendered insensible to pain prior to being killed, which is supposed to be the aim of stunning an animal. I don't agree with killing animals at all but there is a very big difference in electrocuting an animal to temporary paralysis and slitting its throat while it's semi conscious vs knocking it out cold with a bolt gun.

Which yes, is also awful and fraught with horrors because there is absolutely no such thing as humane slaughter but there are still degrees of horror and electric water baths and electric tong stunning rank pretty high in my book.

I suppose it's very easy to say that a large portion of animals are "stunned" when you widen the definition of stunning to the point where it can mean "forcibly electrocuted and killed while conscious and in pain anyway".

We need much tighter legislation. Much, much tighter.

I think I'm dropping out of this conversation for tonight, because it's honestly too emotionally difficult. Thinking about what's happening daily in slaughterhouses is too heartbreaking. Seeing people here trying to justify it is worse.

Go hug your kids and thank your lucky stars that you were born human.