To be horrified at the abuse towards Green Party candidate who said he wanted to ban halal (non stunned) slaughter?

[FreshFreesias]

To be horrified at the backlash against Green Party candidate who said he wanted to ban halal (non stunned) slaughter?

Jonathan Bartley of the Green Party, was asked in an interview what he thought about halal slaughtering methods (where animals are often not stunned so are fully conscious when slaughtered). Quite reasonably, considering the party is meant to be pro animal welfare and that he is Vegan, he said personally he’d like to ban it.
There was a big outcry and calls for him to resign for Islamophobia. However he was asked about halal not kosher (which also requires animals not to be stunned prior to slaughter) and no doubt he would have decried any slaughter that requires animals to be slaughtered without stunning, whether it was kosher or halal.

This is a bit like campaigning against bull-fighting and being accused of racism against Spanish people.

Worst of all, when he was criticised, he back-tracked and explained that the Green Party supported kosher and halal slaughtering methods, so a bit of a 360 degree turnaround. Other Green Party apparatchiks then came aboard to grovel and apologise on his behalf.

I remember when the Green Party supported animal welfare and to find them going against recommendations from Compassion in World Farming and the RSPCA, who insist that stunning animals before slaughter takes away some of the pain from this unconscionable process, is very depressing.

Slaughterhouses are already so poorly regulated that to deny animals some relief by rendering them unconscious before they are killed is surely a terrible abomination. I do wish to respect all religions but I am disappointed that animal welfare is being so disrespected.

Yeah @FreshFreesias, you’ll always get this though. I’m not sure if they even give a shit about the religion or just see it as a personal attack on anyone who eats meat tbh.

Let me just spend my Saturday evening defending the painful death of animals... because god forbid someone gets offended.

Yeah, but that prayer is in foreign and the people who eat Halal look different, so it must be bad

I'm afraid I do think this is the crux of it.

Islamaphobia is the 'acceptable' racism.

You couldn't possibly criticise Kosher because some people would view that as anti Semitic and that would be horrendous.

But the muslims are fair game. Apparently.
Despite the muslims trying to appease and integrate and agreeing to stun in most cases despite them not believing that to be in the animals best interests.

But yes let's blame the horrible muslims.

Birthdaycake
The unstunned figure according to CIWF was 12%. I am not comfortable with unstunned slaughter but that doesn’t make all halal slaughter problematic just 12% of it.

So people saying halal should be banned are not differentiating between stunned and unstunned. It perpetuates the myth that all halal is unstunned.

Most - not all. That is what I object to. Because 20% might just be a number to you

It's 12% of Halal which isn't stunned.

Being against that and Kosher slaughter is a logically consistent point of view which could easily be motivated by genuine concern, rather than hatred of another culture (though it's a little illiberal).

Sadly that is not true of the others making this argument.

Well OP literally said halal (unstunned) in her first post... so it was quite clear what she was referring to.

If halal & kosher meat was in all circumstances stunned before death & merely saying a prayer was the only difference, do you think anyone would be outraged by it? (Except those already outraged by slaughter generally.) They wouldn't.

& as I said previously, I see halal sections in all big supermarkets now & I haven’t seen a kosher one. So if it’s more prevalent in our country/faces... why wouldn’t we pick up on that one in particular?

Has nothing to do with Muslims!!!

What frostedviolets said. These debates are almost always about halal meat and slaughter methods when its kosher slaughter that is always cruel.

Animals can be pre stunned for halal meat. It cannot for kosher.

And, for the record, halal just refers to permitted. Air is halal, water is halal and vegetables are halal.

Happy to admit I have learnt something here - I believed all halal meat was not stunned because that was part of the practice that made it ‘halal.’

Brings me nothing but joy to know 88% of animals had the fortune of being stunned. Doesn’t change the fact I whole heartedly disagree with what happened with the other 12%.

@frostedviolets
But I have been at pains to mention kosher as well as halal in every post.

I am sorry you are making religious capital out of my post, because this is certainly not what my post is about.

British people are involved in dog fighting, this is a huge issue as well, but I am not `having a go' at the British race when I raise awareness about it. Nor am I exhibiting prejudice against Spanish people when I seek to abolish bull fighting.

Please read all my posts before making unreasonable pronouncements about my motivations.

Birthdaycake
That’s a very reasonable post.

But I have been at pains to mention kosher as well as halal in every post

Not much mention of it in your opening post though?

I am sorry you are making religious capital out of my post, because this is certainly not what my post is about

Mm, when this debate surfaces, it almost is though..
I have seen and heard this debate a LOT through lots of different avenues and it generally doesn't take long for the anti Muslim view to surface.

British people are involved in dog fighting, this is a huge issue as well, but I am not `having a go' at the British race when I raise awareness about it. Nor am I exhibiting prejudice against Spanish people when I seek to abolish bull fighting

This may be true for you personally.
But the halal, and virtually never Kosher, debate comes up a lot.
Frequently backed up with islamaphobic comments.
Not on this thread granted though.

Please read all my posts before making unreasonable pronouncements about my motivations

I have and have disappointed at the level of ignorance showed, as previously mentioned by SimonJT

Just amused at the person who says its about halal not muslims 😂

Agree with frosted violets

Well OP literally said halal (unstunned) in her first post

Indeed, I don't think anyone thinks that position is unreasonable, but JB very much did not.

mobile.twitter.com/bbcnwt/status/1200441913746378754

His comments were very ill informed for the leader of the greens. It is her defense of him and the blanket attacks on Halal which are being criticised.

I agree with frostedviolets This topic comes up with monotonous regularity and quite often as a Trojan Horse for another agenda entirely.
Fortunately this thread hasn’t gone that way (yet).

I am sorry you are making religious capital out of my post

OP, have you not seen the very great number of anti-muslim posts which reference this on social media? You have an absolute right to hold your views but surely you must see why (in the context you posted them) it's greeted with some skepticism?

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude I'm afraid you are not quite correct in some of the things you are saying.

That 88% stunned figure applies to chickens only. Chickens "stunned" for halal slaughter aren't stunned at all, they are paralysed by passing them through an electric water bath. If you discount these, which you must as it is not "stunning" for any humane purposes, that suddenly leaves a huge proportion of animals that are not being adequately stunned.

You are right that halal slaughter permits limited forms of stunning but some of these methods, the water baths being the most notable example, don't actually render the animal insensible to pain.

For clarity, I am more appalled by kosher slaughter, which does not allow even limited provisions for stunning.

You mentioned Temple Gardin but her opinions on this specific matter are just that, opinions. She might be a respected scientist but her article specifically about ritual slaughter is not a peer reviewed paper, it is a short opinion piece published on her own personal website and her argument boils down to "some non halal/non kosher abattoirs are worse". She's also based in the US where slaughterhouse conditions are not comparable to the EU.

Just because someone is a published scientist doesn't mean we are automatically obliged to take all of their personal opinions as gospel. I personally find her quite ethically inconsistent in many respects.

I think that all methods of animal slaughter should be legally required to have adequate stunning prior to killing which must involve rendering the animal completely insensible to pain beforehand. Those abattoirs which cannot meet this very basic animal welfare standard should be prohibited from operating.

If religious slaughterhouses can operate within the confines of bare minimum animal welfare then fine and good but there should not be any exemption from these standards.

For what it's worth, I do think that Jonathan Bartley made a bit of a misstep in singling out halal meat specifically but this was partly due, it seems, to the way the question was put to him.

For the sake of animals and indeed the future of the earth we should all at least reduce meat consumption. I am going vegetarian.

What even is Islamophobia? Do you actually have to like the religion and it’s practices even the barbaric ones?

[facepalm] at the last post

That 88% stunned figure applies to chickens only. Chickens "stunned" for halal slaughter aren't stunned at all, they are paralysed by passing them through an electric water bath. If you discount these, which you must as it is not "stunning" for any humane purposes, that suddenly leaves a huge proportion of animals that are not being adequately stunned

The water bath has been the stun method of choice in British (non halal) slaughterhouses for a very long time.

They are not as effective as they should be, gosh, I can remember reading (non halal) campaigns about them a very, very long time ago.

The Halal slaughterhouses will use the water bath because the water bath is the preferred method of stunning chickens in the UK.

It has nothing to do with 'paralysing' them or trying to avoid them being unconscious

@frostedviolets Water bath stunning is inadequate (which it is) because it paralyses rather than rendering the animal insensible to pain.

It doesn't matter why it is used, it should not be considered "stunning" for the purpose of reducing animal pain (because it does not) and should therefore not be legal. My point is that there needs to be much tighter animal welfare regulation around slaughter, with no exceptions.

@Havaina you can face palm all you like. This from wikipedia of what islamophobia is “Islamophobia is the fear, hatred of, or prejudice against the Islamic religion * I dislike the religion but not the people, the Muslims, big difference. I love all peaceful people of any religion and colour but according to the definition I’m an islamophob? I love animals too and hate this medieval butchery.

What even is Islamophobia? Do you actually have to like the religion and it’s practices even the barbaric ones?

I don't follow a religion myself, if pressed I suppose I would say I am nearer to spiritualism, I personally think religion is the cause of most evil and should do one.

But I would never think cruelly of someone or treat someone nastily because of their chosen religion.

Thinking Ill of muslims and sometimes even outright aggression towards them seems to be considered somewhat socially acceptable.

Lots of talk for example about how Islamic people are terrorists but no such vicious words about the Irish (I am part Irish myself!) who are still, even today, albeit at a far lower level still fighting.

No one speaks ill of the Irish.
Nor the Jews for the atrocities in Israel.
But its fine to label the Muslims.

On barbaric practices.
Muslims (and Jews) genuinely believe their method of slaughter to cause far less pain and suffering.
They are not being deliberately cruel.

My understanding is that under halal slaughter the animal isn't actually supposed to know what is about to happen, the knife is meant to be hidden and the whole thing immensely quick.

Both Muslims and Jews take animal welfare very seriously.

There is evidence to suggest that properly done halal/Kosher slaughter is more humane and far quicker than conventional slaughter.

Certainly, the British system is anything but humane.
Stunning it no stunning, there is MUCH improvement to be made.

Derail, but I had a Muslim taxi driver take my dog to the vets for me once as she was seriously unexpectedly ill and I had no transport.
He didnt like dogs, thought of them as 'unclean' animals but said Islam requires him to always help another in need, be they human or animal.
He was really nice, refused money from me when she vomited all over his car aswell 😂

What I am trying to say with that little story is far from being uncaring animal abusers, most Muslims (and Jews) are kind to animals and do not seek out to cause them harm.

@frostedviolets I just looked it up and you are also not correct that electric water bath stunning is the most common slaughter method. According to the RSPCA, 71% of poultry are killed using gas and water bath stunning is not recommended as it is especially inhumane.

(www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/slaughter/factfile)

Water bath stunning is inadequate (which it is) because it paralyses rather than rendering the animal insensible to pain

Yes. I wasn't denying that.
I was making the point that the reason halal slaughterhouses use it is because it is the preferred British method. No other reason.

It doesn't matter why it is used, it should not be considered "stunning" for the purpose of reducing animal pain (because it does not) and should therefore not be legal

Quite right.
But at the moment, it IS the main way of stunning in the U.K.
All over.
Not just Halal.

MMy point is that there needs to be much tighter animal welfare regulation around slaughter, with no exceptions

I agree but stunned halal slaughter is pretty much the same as stunned regular.

mobile.twitter.com/bbcnwt/status/1200441913746378754

Its cruel. End of.