to think that the NHS is really quite shit and that not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero?

[Adenosine]

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings. At the time it was set up it was innovative, but now there are many other universal healthcare systems most of which are better than the NHS and many of which cost less money.

It's ranked low globally and really quite shit yet few people dare criticise or. AIBU to think that we really need to be far more critical?

I actually find this thread very validating. My whole family and pretty much all my 'circle' are leftie, and growing up to find out that the NHS really isn't very good has been one of the biggest disappointments of my life. Every poster that viciously attacks the OP also just helps to make the original point as well. We're never going to be able to make it better as we're not allowed to say it's broken.

I have always had exceptional NHS care, as have DD and DH. I think though that the current societal challenges we face (esp. an ageing population with multiple concurrent health needs and to a certain extent the rise of obesity) are showing us that things have changed radically since the NHS was established and that provision needs to be rethought. But no politician is going to stand up for slashing heart surgery for x population group, knee replacements for y or IVF for z.

The NHS is not for for purpose, it needs a radical rehaul.
There is a lot of ground in between the NHS and the US system.
People love to blame the conservatives for ‘selling off’ the NHS have short memories as it was labour who began doing this.
I’m pretty sure that there were hospitals went bust when the banking crisis happened due to not being able to pay the PFI. This is/was Gordon Browns baby, he has a lot to answer for imo.
I’m sure there’ll be all the excuses as to why it was acceptable for labour to do it though.

If Northern European systems deliver better how much is the difference due to overall population health?

Not all I’m sure but interesting to know in general.

I'm a nurse and I think the major problem is underfunding in order to sell it off by the tories.
BUT. People also need to take responsibility for their own health. The 'free' NHS has provided a safety net. You can drink, eat, smoke as much as you like and the NHS will fix you.
I have daily conversations with my patients about why their wounds are still not healing months down the line. They blame the dressings, the nurses, the consultants, everybody but themselves who 'cant' give up smoking, 'cant' elevate their legs, 'can't' control their blood sugar or listen to the advice that the nurses tell them on each visit. Most of them don't need expensive equipment, dressings or medication. They just need to take responsibility for themselves and their health. Instead we spend months dressing dying limbs which eventually will be amputated.
Health promotion should be the key, along with addressing the phenomenal waste in the NHS.

I work in the NHS no denying it's struggling but if it had more money and was funded correctly it would be much much better. If social care was funded properly and better organised it would massively help the NHS but we know this. Things need to change but we would regret losing what we have if we lost it.

As for the staff I hate the angels tag to be honest, not all staff care like they should or work like they should either. However most of us do actually care and work our hardest for patients in every 12 hour shift and try to make the best of it. Which right now is very very difficult.

FormerlyFrikadela0, but that's the point, isnt it?
It seems the only discussion is whether to privatise or not, instead of how to improve it without privatisation.

I agree with that AS it makes me fume when I'm trying to save someone's leg and they are still on 30 fags a day, eat rubbish and don't turn up for appointments. It's not just one its hundreds a year.

I would be interested to know which universal health care systes you are thinking about that is free at the point of entry?
My family and I have all had great care from the NHS at all stages of life.
Yes they need more staff but it is not broken and I wouldn't want to live in a cou try with any other type of healthcare system

Go away boris no one believes you

I was awaiting for someone to mention wanting a high ranking system and using France as the example.

I lived in France, the medical services provided to me were fantastic, my son was born there and I would hugely recommend the maternity side of things over there. HOWEVER, I have one big issue with the French system.

One of the most important things (to me) in a healthcare system is that everyone can access the healthcare they need. In France the system is not free in the same way as it is in the. You pay for your appointments, treatments, surgeries and prescriptions and then you are refunded at a later date. Most people get a 75% refund but the poorest people do get 100%. The problem with this system is that the very poorest people don't have the money available to them to pay upfront and then be refunded, it's just not possible for them. So while it may look fantastic on paper this system does not support the very poorest people who may be those most in need.

You are a little bit U. I'm some ways I have been let down by the system. I've got quite a lot of MH issues, and I've had very little help in over a decade. I've decided to go private for my MH care.

On the other hand, I started coughing up blood last year. The care I have received since would have most likely bankrupt me If i lived in somewhere like the states. Even with insurance medical bills bankrupt people every day in the good old USA.

If the NHS is truly not meeting your needs, then maybe have some self autonomy and figure out how to get the treatment you need.

Personally, I am thankful for it, and you may concentrate on not everyone being Angel's who work for the NHS. I prefer to think quite fondly of the people who have helped me through the past year.

I have worked in and used both the NHS and Aus systems and I am absolutely terrified about ever having to go to Hospital here in UK. Granted I have only ever worked in 2 Hospitals and a Community Trust (as it was then) here but these were not good compared to my other places of work.
The system needs an overhaul and a bit of a tidy up.
The funny thing is that people are so loyal to the NHS (and should be to some extent) but as staff, we are trained in reflective practice so are constantly looking at what is going wrong in order to improve. It's ok to criticise, nothing is perfect.

One of the most important things (to me) in a healthcare system is that everyone can access the healthcare they need. In France the system is not free in the same way as it is in the. You pay for your appointments, treatments, surgeries and prescriptions and then you are refunded at a later date. Most people get a 75% refund but the poorest people do get 100%. The problem with this system is that the very poorest people don't have the money available to them to pay upfront and then be refunded, it's just not possible for them. So while it may look fantastic on paper this system does not support the very poorest people who may be those most in need.

It's not just the very poorest people either. We're constantly being told about the squeezed middle on MN. The people that on paper are decent earners butnin reality have little wiggle room in their budget. I imagine many of them would put off seeking treatment because something else is more important that month. Hell I've been putting off going to the dentist for well over a year because I've had other things to pay for and I'm on a band 6 nurses salary.

YANBU.

I don't know why so many people jump to the "oh but look at America!!" Like it's the ONLY alternative.

Take a look at Germany or Australia, fantastic systems!!

@soupforbrains that sounds very much like the Aussie system but people can often find "bulk billing" services where they don't have to pay the fee and the practice just claims the gap from Medicare.

3 weeks ago I was sent to a&e by my optician for an emergency investigation due to a worrying examination. Since then I have had 2x CT scans, an MRI, 2 nights in hospital, countless blood tests etc and a lumbar puncture. They have been dedicated and thorough and remain committed to finding out what is going on with me. I've been so impressed. I know others will have had different experiences but wanted to share mine.

I work for the NHS, and while not everybody's underpaid some people definitely are. When I was still training, I had a lot of 24h+ shifts. I think the sacrifices I've had to make for your benefit are a lot more than you realize - I have 2 DC and pretty much only see them on weekends as I get home from work after 7pm almost every day. There are plenty of other jobs I could be doing for a higher salary, maybe you should think about that next time you're ill. It's really not the government's fault that the NHS is understaffed either - you can choose between long wait times for A&E or going private, where the service won't be as good because all they care about is money. It's not perfect, but it could be much worse.

Yes yanbu!

I was an “oh you can’t possibly criticise the NHS” person until earlier this year when my elderly parents went into the geriatric ward of our local hospital. Of course there were caring and good individuals who looked after them but the care was shockingly bad, repeated mistakes were made, and that was with all of us advocating for them. The best that can be said is that we managed to get dad out of that horrible place so he could die at home, and the palliative care was good. Mum had already died under their crappy care after a fall out of bed in an ward that was unattended. We put in a long formal complaint and the resulting report led us to consider legal action.

My own experiences of having treatment for a chronic health condition is patchy. The wait to see someone was ridiculous. My consultant is good, the nurses are lovely, and they’re always running at least an hour late no matter what time my appointment is.

I understand exactly what you mean OP and I’m so sick of this feeling that you can’t criticise, they’re all doing their heroic best in wartime-like conditions etc etc and if the care we get isn’t very good we just have to be thankful we “don’t pay for it” which isn’t true anyway. It plays into a particularly weird British thing about not complaining.

At this point I’m increasingly wondering what the problem with continuing to sell off bits off to private companies, US or otherwise, actually is. Or let those of us who can contribute more, pay to see our GP or something. I’ve no idea what the solution is but I agree that not talking about it is ridiculous. Other than that I’m making damn sure I stay out of the system as much as humanly possible though by taking better care of myself.

I think the sacrifices I've had to make for your benefit are a lot more than you realize - I have 2 DC and pretty much only see them on weekends as I get home from work after 7pm almost every day. There are plenty of other jobs I could be doing for a higher salary, maybe you should think about that next time you're ill.

I too work in the NHS. I too sometimes go days without seeing my child. However attitudes like this suck. No one owes you anything. You chose to do the work you do. You went into it knowingly. The whole "respect me be cause I make sacrifices" is part of the problem with a massive proportion of the staff.

@BritWifeinUSA

it’s not “free” - you pay an extortionate amount of tax for it

The US pays more per capita for Medicare / Medicaid which must people have no access to, than Britain does for the NHS. Look at the red bar on here:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42950587

@Nonnymum

Germany.

Free healthcare at the point of access for all is a brilliant concept. I remember the feeling of gratitude in my hospital bed feeling grateful that despite having had a low-risk pregnancy, I would never see the bill for an EMCS, stay in HDU and several days on main ward etc. Meanwhile the ward was horribly short-staffed on a 1:14 ratio to MWs avaliable.

The problems are complex.
Good old underfunding creating poor working conditions which exacerbates staff shortages.
Inefficient organisational structures. I know a senior nurse who worked a particular less popular nightshift once a week. For some reason HR got stroppy about her contract with the result that she resigned, went to the bank and now gets paid more to do the same shift. Ring fencing budgets means money is wated on X or it's lost anyway while Y which urgently needs the money and misses out.
Taking the brunt of poor social and community care.
Declining public health and poor personal responsibility.
Medical advances creating costly treatments.

Throwing endless funding at it won't solve the problem. Professionals need to be listened to and structures adjusted. I don't know the actual solutions, that's why I'm an armchair pundit not putting myself forwards into anything political. We need to preserve free access to quality health care for all, but getting too hung up on the sanctity of the NHS as it is and not looking at different methods of achieving it isn't going to achieve anything.

I work in the NHS. Not everyone in it is perfect or a hero. But most people go above and beyond both in terms of their effort and their time. And above a certain pay point, we could earn more elsewhere. But we stay in the NHS because we are committed to it.

The pockets of crap often can't be easily dealt with. We have employed nurses who we know could be a lot better. But there is a massive shortage due to the lack of sensible funding of the training. So sometimes you keep the best you can get whilst knowing it's not the excellent care you want to give.

The question really is whether the outputs are good compared to the money going in isn't it? And a lot of what people complain about is what they voted for with a Tory government.