to think that the NHS is really quite shit and that not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero?

[Adenosine]

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings. At the time it was set up it was innovative, but now there are many other universal healthcare systems most of which are better than the NHS and many of which cost less money.

It's ranked low globally and really quite shit yet few people dare criticise or. AIBU to think that we really need to be far more critical?

@KTCluck

We were taken on a nice tour of a pharmaceutical office (very posh) and then to a lovely restaurant for a nice meal all paid for by the drug company. We didn't earn a lot of money so it was a treat for us.

The NHS model was fine when it was set up for medical treatment to be free at the point of delivery.

But a lot has changed since the 1940s and 50s. We have had massive population growth and have an aging population with a surge in diseases linked to old age. The NHS is expected to pay for all kinds of things that it wasn't set up for eg IVS, sex change operations plus at one point gym sessions for the obese.

Yes, nurses are not angels, they are a spread of personalities like everyone else. When my DGM was dying the first ward she was on was dreadful, with grumpy and impatient staff. For some reason she was moved to another ward which couldn't have been more different. Same hospital, both medical wards. Just run by different people. Which I suppose is the reason why people on here have such different experiences.

I happened to have a serious health problem while working with a group of Europeans. They were all absolutely shocked by the amount of time it took the NHS to treat me. (The only person who said our health service was better than his was Russian.) I think the government insurance systems, like most of the rest of Europe have, are the way to go. Unfortunately people are so protective of the NHS it'll never happen, NHS will just continue to get worse and worse.

In the US We’d be bankrupt if we’d had to pay for care of dh’s terminally ill son. Well we wouldn’t because we could have afforded medical insurance.

Care he’s had under nhs has been amazing and awful.

There are other models of funding...I can’t see how free healthcare in the way it is now can continue.

I'm totally pro NHS IF it had the funding to be run well.

I live in Korea and the healthcare system here runs much better. Pay around 50 pounds a month, each visit to the GP costs maybe 2 pounds or so, if they refer you on, it may cost a bit more but it's worth it tbh. As an example, my husband recently had heart and brain function tests, not an urgent case by any means but he was seen within a day. The tests took three hours total without any waiting around, results came within a week. Cost was less than 50 pounds.

Doctors will sometimes order tests that imo are unnecessary in order to make extra money but at the end of the day, they will often catch things like cancer far earlier than we do.

Universal healthcare is an amazing concept but it doesn't work if it's not well funded. The better option is to do as Korea or most European countries do and pay monthly and then pay a small amount for each service used. Which I suppose is what the Tories have wanted all along.

Spot on Adenosine.

I hope we can move towards the Western Europe/Australia models.

Re-write the PFI contracts.

Get rid of the dirty noisy wards altogether. Single rooms only.

The inter reliance between self employed GPs and state run hospitals is bizarre.

There’s a huge number of people who can’t afford private health insurance on top of their onerous tax burdens, but who would happily pay something for a better service.

We need to free ourselves from this outdated socialist monolith (hard hat donned).

I work as a healthcare professional in the NHS. Please have no doubt that people piss and moan about the NHS ALL THE TIME. I literally hear complaints about A&E depts, GP surgeries, dentists, hospital wards etc etc etc every single day. People are voicing their honest opinion, don’t you worry! And complaining to me, someone who works at least 8 hours of unpaid overtime a week with a caseload of over 400 patients and only one other specialist doing my job in my county meaning every holiday or sick episode I have is followed by even more complaints regarding the waiting list.

I’m currently ‘paying’ for having a terrible virus that meant I was off work for 2 days. The patients who’s appointments were postponed were very vocal indeed as to how pissed off they were that I called in sick!

And you can’t even blame the NHS for there only being one other person to cover me. We have 3 empty posts with funding for permanent positions. Nobody is applying. Nobody wants to work for the NHS anymore it seems. And who can blame them quite frankly.

The NHS definitely has problems. But not system is perfect.

But it's interesting that the feedback for saying that suggests going privately or that the US system is bad. As someone who lived in Singapore, which is 6 on the list by the way and almost wholly private, there are other ways.

I needed a xray for my visa and I got one within an hour (including travelling to the hospital). I needed a GP, I went to the doctors office and waited to be seen that day.

My partner at the time was admitted to hospital and he had his own private room, ensuite, meal choices and all the machines outside (type A included in his insurance). Wards do exist: type B1 and B2 are 4-6 bedded and C is 9 bed. But Singapore is not perfect.

FWIW I usually go private for care, especially quality of life stuff. And our incomes are less than the average salary. I just don't have the patience for NHS waiting times and a prolonged system of being passed from one person to another before seeing the person you need. I like being able to ring a gynaecologist when I need a gynaecologist and a dermatologist when I need a dermatologist.

Then NHS were fine when FIL died of emphysema and amazing MIL was having cancer treatment.

How we manage our personal healthcare is our choice. So each to their own.

The NHS definitely has problems. But no system is perfect.

But it's interesting that the feedback for saying that suggests going privately or that the US system is bad. As someone who lived in Singapore, which is 6 on the list by the way and almost wholly private, there are other ways.

I needed a xray for my visa and I got one within an hour (including travelling to the hospital). I needed a GP, I went to the doctors office and waited to be seen that day.

My partner at the time was admitted to hospital and he had his own private room, ensuite, meal choices and all the machines outside (type A included in his insurance). Wards do exist: type B1 and B2 are 4-6 bedded and C is 9 bed. But Singapore is not perfect.

FWIW I usually go private for care, especially quality of life stuff. And our incomes are less than the average salary. I just don't have the patience for NHS waiting times and a prolonged system of being passed from one person to another before seeing the person you need. I like being able to ring a gynaecologist when I need a gynaecologist and a dermatologist when I need a dermatologist.

Then NHS were fine when FIL died of emphysema and amazing MIL was having cancer treatment.

How we manage our personal healthcare is our choice. So each to their own.

@32FormerlyFrikadela01

"... this suggests the system is very inefficient. The reason getting a GP appointment can be hard in the UK is because every second if their time is accounted for with appointments. Being able to literally walk into a surgery and get an appointment when you like means that some doctors or nurses are being paid a lot of money (and in Australia it is a lot compared to the UK) and having periods of time when they're essentially just waiting for someone to come in."

Well, not really. All the surgeries here are independent/private. They get paid a set amount by the government for each appointment. I think it's something like $38. With some variation if you have a treatment or long appointment. So if it was inefficient each surgery would go out of business.

@chatwoo it's very easy to find a bulk billed doctor in my experience. So free at point of contact. Because it's easy I go to a bulk billed (free) doctor for vaccinations, referals and routine things. I go to a more expensive gp (where you pay the gap between $38 and their set charge) for complex matters. It's great to have the easy choice.

Some facts would be good, for example, which ones, which countries so we can assess the validity of what you are saying to ensure you are not a person with an agenda.

I can only go on my own experiences and friends and family and the people who work in the NHS ... ... having received excellent service in under resourced circumstances and knowing, many people in different roles (surgeon, GPs, nurses, carers, admin, managers) giving hours and hours of free time. I am sure the must be the odd bad apple or someone whose service has dropped but my experience has been one of expertise, caring, access when needed.

I think we have a very good system here,However it is not "free" to everyone ,as anyone in work ,earning over 166.00 P/W will pay Nat Ins .I agree its not perfect ,but where you live in the country will be different to another area . We have an excellent hospital nearby .(South Coast).I think most Doctors /Nurses do a very good job .

There's some excellent care provided by NHS but also shocking. I don't know what the answer is, but I do think some admin staff (clearly not all - some are brilliant) really waste time. I've had to explain to staff lots of time why something doesn't make sense ie a follow up appointment to discuss DS's MRI being booked for BEFORE the MRI. When I question the staff often say something like "well it says here the surgeon needs to see him and the surgeon knows best" and it seems really hard to explain that we do need to see him, but he means after the MRI. Every time we've been right when we've checked.

My DS has regular x rays and is sent as routine but a couple of times we've questioned it because we understand what the surgeon needs and why and yes indeed it's turned out they weren't necessary nor requested by his surgeon and wouldn't have been looked at - saved DS radiation and NHS time and money. We were also booked in for an MRI of a different area DS didn't need and I understood the logic of booking it all in one by one team but double checked with the other team in question and it wasn't required as wouldn't be relevant in a few years when surgery due.

Equally we haven't been given appointments when we knew it was necessary; we knew what conditions DS had but community paediatrician felt we were just anxious parents and wouldn't refer. We paid to see our consultant privately at Alder Hey and he agreed and referred us back on NHS. DS does have the conditions we suspected and needed early intervention.

I've been given factually incorrect information by loads of health professionals. It's probably not that harmful in each case and most people would be none the wiser but it makes us wonder.

It just feels like if some support staff were more "switched on" there would be loads of time and money saved and that's just in our case (I'd say several hundred if not more just in the last year)

tax Based healthcare is one of the most efficient models and many insurance systems are basically moving closer and closer to this because of all of the subsidies that are needed to offer universal healthcare. Insurers are often banned from basing premiums on age or health conditions. The biggest issue is underfunding. That wouldn’t change with an insurance based system unless everyone’s premiums went up. You might as well just raise tax rather than adding extra admin layers.

The NHS is not perfect, but as someone says compare it to America and
you will see how lucky we are.

Part of the problem is private healthcare.

All NHS staff should be banned from working in private hospitals as part of their contract, and private hospitals should not be allowed to use NHS facilities.

You very often see the same consultants under BUPA - in a week instead of 3 months and are then treated in NHS facilities.

@Newuseroftheweek that's a really good idea about picking and choosing between the different GP surgeries. I always used to go to a bulk billing walk in centre, but then changed to a more of a family type practice.

Never occurred to me to switch between the two, depending on what I'm there for!

Banning NHS staff from private hospitals sounds the worst solution. Atm you can get the same world class care on the NHS if you wait longer than you do private. Why would you stop that

Also it would drive up cost of private to the point that the NHS was overloaded even more

Some world class hospitals bring in huge amount of funding from o/s paying to use UK services. Another good thing which puts £ into the system.

YANBU. It is good that it's there but if you compare the service standard it is just passable. There is no extra care given and some nurses are clueless. I was expecting a scan to my womb, and three nurses didn't know how to operate the machine for at least ten minutes while I was lying there spreadeagled until a doctor came in and scolded them.

And they really do just give you enough so you don't complain. Compare this to private treatment like say in Singapore then you know what an excellent health care is like. I'm glad its there but if I'm seriously ill I'd rather not be treated by the NHS.

Would you prefer a private system like America? Where pregnant women are treated like slabs of meat instead of living, feeling beings? Where people regularly bankrupt themselves for medicine they desperately need? Where people die because they cannot afford treatment or where they are forced to buy dodgy medicine off the black market? Where people have to live under insurance companies thumb? Where you never know if some of the tests/procedures are things you need or a doctor just trying to make money?

what other healthplans provide an ambulance in an emergency to take you to hospital or treat you at the scene of an accident? I am asking a genuine question, just I don't know of an alternative to an NHS Ambulance in that scenario, happy to be proved wrong though

Some of the European ones are supposed to be good, but people have to have insurance as well.

My cousin lives in America and gave birth in Harvard medical centre. It was like a 5 star hotel. America is great if you have a good job.

But. This thread is about NHS Quality and I stand by that it is lacking and could be improved. it is not free for me as I pay a lot of tax and NIS. I expect better.

The Belgian system, which is co pay is superb as well..can't fault it.

The NHS used to the the fifth largest employer in the world. One has to ask why that is necessary for the size of the UK.

I was one year old when the NHS came into being. In that time I've had 7 operations, 4 babies, several small procedures. I've had smear tests, mammograms, and vaccinations. I have regular diabetes and eye checks, and now I have free prescriptions. My husband's life has been saved by chemotherapy and radiotherapy, and we haven't had to pay at source for any of it. All these treatments have been administered by staff who have been competent, friendly and helpful.
On another forum I belong to, people from the USA describe having to try to source meds from the internet, or not having the insurance cover to pay for vital treatments for cancer and other life threatening illness. You, @Adenosine, are talking out of an orifice other than your mouth.