to think that the NHS is really quite shit and that not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero?

[Adenosine]

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings. At the time it was set up it was innovative, but now there are many other universal healthcare systems most of which are better than the NHS and many of which cost less money.

It's ranked low globally and really quite shit yet few people dare criticise or. AIBU to think that we really need to be far more critical?

Totally agree 👍🏻 Two nurse best friends and a Dr in the family - the biggest worry they have is being abused/assaulted by absolute dregs of society whose entitled attitude and complete lack of respect are a real issue.

Unfortunately whilst ever it’s free it will continue to be taken advantage of!

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings

This... to my own detriment this was me, for years I followed with blind belief the NHS was 'it' waited my turn, took the constant appointment cancellations and disjointed care - I have a long term chronic auto immune disease and recurrent miscarriage

Here in my large Yorkshire city my care is abysmal. I should see 'my' consultant (whoever that is it's changed / been cancelled so many times) every three months. This hasn't happened in years.

For my own sanity and health I had to go private as I was a sinking ship in the NHS.

The NHS fails at long term/ complex specialist care... where it excels is urgent care, cancer care etc (in my opinion)

Is that you Boris?

I don’t think it’s shit I do think some undervalue it.

The NHS is underfunded to do what we all want it to do and expect it to do. We spend 9.8% of GDP on healthcare compared to 16.9% for the USA. We need an honest public discussion about how much we want to spend and facing the fact that, if we want very expensive treatments, no waiting times or whatever, we’ll need to spend more, be that by higher taxes or some sort of insurance system.

It’s also worth noting that the NHS does pay to send children abroad for medical treatment not yet available in the UK. Currently in Germany for my daughter to have fully funded proton beam radiotherapy while we finish building capacity in the UK.
We also spent last weekend on a German paediatric oncology ward and my goodness, I missed the NHS provision. Shared rooms with beds close enough to touch, no curtains between them, inadequate anti emetics.... I could go on. Anyway, we aren’t the only country with an imperfect health care system. But we do need to make some decisions about how much and how we want to fund it. We can do so much more than when it was set up that the old structures don’t work any more and we’re kidding ourselves if we think they do.

@ Hellofromtheotherside2020 it's not free in Australia though. If you don't go to a bulk billing GP, and claim back the cost of the consultation via medicare, you don't get the full amount back. And there's no cap/set fees for prescription prices or dentistry costs.

The population is also a lot less than uk, despite the huge land mass.

My MIL is British but lives in Germany, the healthcare she receives is far superior to the NHS and she is a pensioner on very low income.
I’d take the German system over the NHS any day. The NHS was fantastic, but it is no longer fit for purpose and chucking money at it is not going to help.
I had brilliant maternity care recently, but it is a lottery.

Really quite shit - if true, down to lack of investment and costly, unnecessary and damaging Lansley (Conservative) reforms. Not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero well of course not. Who with two brain cells to rub together even thinks this? Some, however, are. As in any organisation where many are paid NMW and are expected to work long hours in difficult and demanding conditions.

I have had good care and bad care by the NHS. I still think it is one of the best in the world. In the US a lot of women are encouraged to have a hysterectomy whereas here Doctors will do everything possible to make sure you don't have your uterus removed. In the US Doctors get paid a lot of money to perform operations and their health care is money motivated imho

Plan,

So what you are saying is that we get what we pay for, cheap mediocre (at best) health care. So, you actually agree with the OP that we are far from them envy of the world’. Incidentally, both France and Canada, with very similar per capita spends, achieve better outcomes.

Although I don’t think many envy the US, some copayments (such as in France or Germany) do seem to make sense, both economically and in terms of improving the attitudes of (some) medical professionals.

The idea of ‘it’s free so you should be grateful’ still seems very much in evidence, in GP’s surgeries, in hospitals and on this thread.

On the whole we’re not as healthy as some other countries which adds to the strain.

JolieOBrien I mean that services previously provided by the NHS are increasingly being provided by private companies. Whether you want to call that ‘selling off’ or privatisation.

Initially this was services such as carparks, catering, domestics (the latter not in our trust). It is increasingly now also clinical services. For example, a trust near to ours used to provide the same service as my department does. Due to lack of funding and difficulty in recruitment in that area (we are in a very short staffed discipline due to changes made by the government to the training and funding for said training, and this is becoming a huge issue as qualified staff retire and aren’t being replaced) this service is no longer provided by that trust. Instead they have had to use a private company. The owner of this company has made an absolute fortune charging the NHS to do something that it could do itself for less had the initial funding for new equipment and training more staff been available - a high initial outlay but much less in the long run. This company does all the ‘easy’ work for a high fee, ie straightforward patients who require routine tests. Anything more complex such as complicated cases requiring more in depth testing, children with autism or LD who need extra time and support to have the tests done, are all sent to us, increasing our waiting lists. We are fined when we breach waiting list targets, draining our budget. Who knows, in the future as staff retire from our department that we can’t replace due to the lack of training, and we continue to struggle to provide a service to other trusts for the patients private companies aren’t interested in, because the profit margin isn’t big enough, maybe our service will start to struggle and have to be taken over by the same private company to make a fortune from (and no doubt send the difficult stuff to the cripple the next nearest big trust).

Having used the NHS extensively over the last three years for a chronic illness, I can safely say I think the people that work in it are fantastic.

My Consultant is the best I have ever seen and I have a Rheumatology Nurse who I can pick up the phone and speak to whenever needed.

I'm about to start medication that shall we say isn't cheap per year and whilst my condition has had to be at a certain severity to get it, there has been no quibble whatsoever, my Consultant has said I need it and I am getting it. On top of this, I don't have to pay for prescriptions (due to being on certain medication), so the cost of all this to me? Zero, absolutely nothing.

So no, the NHS most certainly isn't shit. At the moment I have no life, i wake up in pain, I go to work in pain, I go to sleep at night (as much as I get) in pain. My Consultant and the specialist nurses are doing all they can to give me my life back and whilst they may say "that's my job", to me I will forever be in their debt.

So no, it's not at all shit!

If you want to try the US way think of this that happened to someone I know.

They broke their leg. They couldn't afford medical treatment so the doctors popped an ordinary bandage like you would buy at the chemist, on it and told her not to walk on it.
She will now be permanently disabled.

Stop using PFI !!!

@KTCluck

I am very worried about how drug companies hold the NHS to ransom. When I worked in the hospital pharmacy I ordered all the drugs and we would get Drug reps turning up to see the Principal Pharmacist. We were all taken out for meals etc which was very nice but inappropriate. One drug company actually took some doctors on a cruise (this true I'm afraid) I think big pharma is rife in this country and in the US.

Witchend awful. We have it really good. As pp said the treatment is costing zero. Having used private I saw the cost breakdown. Very high.

ODFOD

Having worked for the NHS for over 40 years, I do think the OP has a point although I do think the ideology is good.
Unfortunately there is a lot of money wasted in the NHS. For instance if GP surgeries are essentially businesses they get paid for almost any intervention eg giving a tetanus jab. Essentially with the exception of actually seeing people who are sick they have an incentive, is it any wonder you can’t get an appointment

Agree. It seems people are never allowed to criticise anything that is free though, even when there are lives at risk.

No other country on the planet emulates this dysfunctional paradigm. Nowhere else. How many scandals are required before its deluded cheerleaders admit the problems are systemic and firehosing money at it won’t work? The evil Tories meme won’t fool those who have had intimate experience of it or those of us who have excellent health care beyond the UK

I'm not sure why people compare NHS to US system as though those were the only alternatives.

That said, based on my experience of living in the US for 35 years, then living in UK for 10 here are my observations :

1. For major illnesses, NHS wins. I've seen people get world-class treatment for cancer, organ failure, etc., and not have to think about money at all. My dad in US drained his retirement funds to pay for my brother's cancer treatment.

1. For preventative, routine care, NHS falls short. Most of the practices I've encountered are badly run. NHS dental practices don't even have hygienists.

1. Maternity care has a strange mixture of overbearing paternalism, with shocking conditions for the actual care. Having been on a post-birth ward I was astounded at the humiliating and painful conditions for the new mothers. And the staff were not "overworked", they did not give a fuck. It was like misogyny writ large.

JolieOBrien yes, I’ve seen that myself (never been taken on a cruise unfortunately). It’s been clamped down on in the last few years, certainly in our trust anyway. We are no longer allowed to be taken for meals etc.

I personally don’t think anyone should be making huge profits from first line healthcare, and if they are then that is a system that to me is ‘really quite shit’ OP.

@PhilCOrnwall1

This is the service I DREAM of

@Creamwallscreamfloors

Yes GP surgeries also get paid extra money for looking after elderly patients as I keep telling my Dad when he needs to see a Doctor nearly every week ... he has COPD because he smoked for over 40 years

@Adenosine You will no get much sympathy on here. The NHS due to the crap political football that goes on with it is like a national obsession and anyone that criticises it is like an anti christ. Especially so with a lot of MN, many that haven't ever set foot outside the country and experienced other healthcare system. As another posters listed earlier, Australia only spends slightly more than the U.K. per head but is brilliant. I'm not sure that is totally correct as there is also a lot of provision for private healthcare in Aus in the form of insurance that gives you better provision.

The reality is that the NHS is a slumbering giant. Biggest employer in Europe and as a result it is difficult to change and improve it without it taking ages. Yet healthcare is one of the fastest changing areas currently

And yes, not everyone who works there is a hero, in fact very few are hero's. They are people doing a job like anyone else, and some do it better than others. The ones that don't do it very well often don't get dealt with as they should, especially in areas of shortage such as nursing.