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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that the NHS is really quite shit and that not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero?

648 replies

Adenosine · 30/11/2019 03:59

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings. At the time it was set up it was innovative, but now there are many other universal healthcare systems most of which are better than the NHS and many of which cost less money.

It's ranked low globally and really quite shit yet few people dare criticise or. AIBU to think that we really need to be far more critical?

OP posts:
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PlanDeRaccordement · 01/12/2019 18:02

Screaminglady.

No. Sorry you are wrong. The only difference between the three public goods is scale.
Fire brigade...yes needed less often but still a need
Police...needed just as much (not all crime is violent), but still a need.
Both funded through indirect and direct taxes. It is proven to be the most efficient way to provide everyone’s needs for the least money.

Public goods are needs not wants and so the economic law of supply and demand mean that demand is finite. Not infinite as you are saying.

It is your analogy comparing healthcare (need) to “free stuff” (want) that is flawed, not mine. You haven’t done the economic analysis.

TheKitchenWitch · 01/12/2019 18:05

Can people who don’t know what they are talking about please stop spouting “facts”?
Germany’s healthcare most certainly is free at point of access, for everyone with a health card. You pay for healthcare via taxes, the amount depending on how much you earn.

XingMing · 01/12/2019 18:37

Ummm, and I know this statement will get my ass toasted and handed back to me in shreds.... what if only acute and palliative care were funded by the NHS over the age of (example only) 85?

I have an elderly relative in failing health who has DNR notices across every bit of paper and who still keeps going, in poor health and house-bound; she's miserable that no one will leave her to die peacefully. She is intelligent and thoughtful, though quickly irritated, with dementia/memory issues, but is not looking forward to more life because it has become a burden on her and on those who love her, who are not her carers for geographic reasons ( 300 miles apart). She would be happy to slip away in her sleep, and we all hope, for her, that this happens.

larrygrylls · 01/12/2019 18:40

Plan,

I think you know that some healthcare is a need and some is a want and quite a bit is somewhere in the middle!

Kidney transplant for a 70 year old, elective Caesarian section, breast reduction or enlargement, gastric bypass etc etc. Or even the most recent cancer drug vs the previous version.

The NHS is a bit like a lottery. The treatment you get depends where you live and how well you can agitate for it.

frumpety · 01/12/2019 18:51

XingMing seriously ??? You honestly believe that anyone who doesn't get to the grand old age of 85 and has a terminal illness should have to pay for palliative care, so babies upwards ? I would honestly give up my free time to provide that care to ensure those who needed it didn't have to pay for it. I have to ask what you understand by the term palliative care, because I hope what you think it is, isn't what it is ?

Alsohuman · 01/12/2019 18:57

I don’t think there should be an arbitrary cut off age but I completely agree with the sentiment. I have a living will which states that if I am diagnosed with dementia no other conditions are to be treated. Commonsense in my view.

Oblomov19 · 01/12/2019 18:58

Diabetic since birth, 2 x children. NHS service I get is superb.

My friends dd is having a scoliosis back operation next week. Apparently costs more than £40k. On the NHS free.

Thatchers privatisation has gone a bit wrong. All the A&E staff here are contracted, at a much higher hourly rate. Seems silly.

Modifications required me thinks!

But UK NHS is still a lot better than plenty of other places.

bellinisurge · 01/12/2019 18:59

I agree with larrygrylls that better care requires someone to fight your corner. I had truly dreadful maternity care - and I mean truly dreadful- and no one lobbied for me because we were all shell shocked by how bad it was.
When my late Mum was in her last year or so and struggling to get good care, I made sure I was one of those family members and lobbied for her every time something bad happened in her care.
I hate to think how a person alone would manage.

Alsohuman · 01/12/2019 18:59

You honestly believe that anyone who doesn't get to the grand old age of 85 and has a terminal illness should have to pay for palliative care, so babies upwards ?

That’s not what she said. Read it again.

frumpety · 01/12/2019 19:03

I may have got the wrong end of the stick Blush did you mean only certain care on the NHS would be provided over a certain age ? XingMing ?

frumpety · 01/12/2019 19:10

Apologies , I shouldn't try to read mumsnet and work out the 'ridiculously hard instructions on the new pressure cooker < if anyone hears another sonic boom , it could well be the blasted thing exploding >

otterturk · 01/12/2019 19:10

The NHS is the national religion, beyond criticism in public discourse. It's counter productive.

frumpety · 01/12/2019 19:53

otterlurk everyone criticises the NHS , and do you know what ? even the people who work in it do at times, because nothing is perfect , there is nothing wrong with criticising something if that in turn leads to improvements.
But it is bonkers to suggest that it is totally rubbish, it really isn't, it does a heck of a lot for the money it currently gets.

MarshaBradyo · 01/12/2019 19:58

Larrygrylls following your supermarket analogy, how would you prefer it to be?

user1497207191 · 01/12/2019 20:10

everyone criticises the NHS , and do you know what ? even the people who work in it do at times, because nothing is perfect , there is nothing wrong with criticising something if that in turn leads to improvements.

But the NHS apologists won't even admit there's anything wrong with it. For them it's ALL about throwing ever increasing amounts of money at it and ignoring the mistakes/inefficiencies because in the big scheme of things, they think the waste isn't important. That's the crux of the problem.

Alsohuman · 01/12/2019 20:22

That simply isn’t true.

floatygoat · 01/12/2019 20:33

Yanbu

Graphista · 01/12/2019 21:01

@dontdisturbmenow the idea that ONE condition and ire sufferers is to blame for the nhs being in crisis is utterly ridiculous!

Your post also shows you have very little knowledge about the condition too. I am presuming you are meaning type 2 diabetes?

Lifestyle is just ONE factor in people developing the condition. And actually recent research is starting to recognise that certain risk factors may actually be incorrect - it seems previous researchers into it may have been misled by the old correlation/causation issue.

I have in my family history on one side several relatives who developed type 2 diabetes in their 30’s and 40’s, all but one are slim, fit, healthy people and the one that isn’t slim is mainly overweight due to being on high amounts of steroids for another condition.

It’s beginning to look more and more like genetics are the main factor possibly with complicating metabolic disorders.

They are all women, who developed gestational diabetes, then post partum thyroiditis (often undx at the initial onset and only recognised in LONG Hindsight) and then hyperparathyroidism which in all but one case took many years to get dx.

I believe based on my family’s experience that there are links between women’s anatomy and body chemistry, how that affects the thyroid and parathyroid glands and type 2 diabetes. When I started noticing the pattern in my own family I started asking friends who I knew with type 2 dx particularly the slim, fit ones if they’d also had issues with their thyroid and the majority have and the problems started within 12 months after giving birth.

I genuinely believe this is a major area that is being ignored.

But even IF type 2 is really caused by unhealthy lifestyles it’s still ludicrous to think ONE condition is the cause of the crisis.

And even IF you blame lifestyle it really still isn’t as simple as “don’t be fat”! But that’s kind of a whole other thread!

Regarding age, ageing = deterioration of all bodily systems & organs that’s the very nature of ageing unfortunately. That of course includes the pancreas, thyroid, parathyroid, kidneys etc lots of us will get old, and those of us that do will be affected by whichever organs pack up on us in whatever order, depending not only on lifestyle but genes, environment..:

But old folk aren’t necessarily more vulnerable to diabetes than they are any other condition. Going on my grandparents, one grandad died due to long term effects of toxins on lungs he was exposed to while serving in wwii, other grandad it was his heart, one grandmother it was diabetes and thyroid issues eventually got too much and other grandmother had Alzheimer’s, ageing is a major factor for that but she’d also sustained a head injury as a young woman, again events in wwii which they now think such injuries can be a factor. So only 1 out of 4 even had diabetes!

Re “drop in the ocean” anyone who’s managed a tight budget knows every penny counts and that a saving is a saving no matter how small, it all contributes. But it’s cumulative, no 1 factor is to blame.

The waste and nonsensical policies need to be streamlined. But funding still needs to be at a reasonable level, none of it can be done for free!

It’s why people call for “the return of Matron”, they want someone with common sense, experience and authority to take charge, so away with any stupidity and get the job done!

I recall watching a show some years ago where a business guy went into hospitals as an objective but cost focused observer and straight away he was like “why are the operating theatres closed on Fridays?” It was because senior surgeons were off playing golf, feeling they’d earned the right to shorter weeks after working crazy hours as junior Drs, which while that may be an argument at the end of the day they were on full time salaries but not working full time and it’s insane that 3 days a week operating theatres full of very expensive equipment were/are lying unused, iirc he also found things like whole newly built wards unused because there wasn’t the staff to run them, perfectly usable expensive equipment being thrown away because newer versions were bought but they could still be used somewhere...

There are well known issues with corrupt practice in procurement.

I’ve similar to many posters witnessed staff watching tv when supposedly on duty, and no they weren’t completing paperwork while doing so, I’ve witnessed admin staff spending easily 30+ mins at a time blethering about boyfriends/holidays etc and ignoring ringing phones and queues of patients waiting to record their attendance for appointments, I myself have been one of those patients and on one occasion ended up being bollocked myself for being “late” for an appointment when actually I’d been 20 mins early but the receptionist was busy arguing with boyfriend on the phone! - which I was able to prove! Shouldn’t have needed to!

Such behaviour wouldn’t be accepted in a private professional environment so why it is remotely considered acceptable in the public sector I don’t know.

I’m also aware that it’s incredibly difficult to get rid of poor staff.

@randomchatter the issue with prescribing of meds that are available otc often very cheaply is that administrating and providing those prescriptions costs the nhs far more than it would cost a lay consumer to buy them otc. However, sometimes it is necessary, some patients especially in these times of austerity really don’t have 35p spare for paracetamol, some patients are living very rurally and it’s not just the cost of the item but transport to the shop can be prohibitive, some patients need high amounts of certain meds which it’s not possible to buy without a prescription due to safety regulations, eg paracetamol can only be bought a small amount at a time, some patients or their carers need to be able to “stock up” so they’re not leaving home more often... so it’s not always as simple as “buy it yourself” BUT I agree that those that CAN afford to, don’t need high amounts or to stock up etc need to buy such items themselves.

I’m in Scotland where prescriptions are free, for which I am massively grateful especially when I’m hearing of all the issues people in England on UC are having with no organisation put in place re prescription forms so people are ending up with huge fines because there’s no comprehensive agreement on which box claimants are meant to tick and claimants are unsure whether they’re eligible for free prescriptions or not it’s a mess!

frumpety · 01/12/2019 21:20

user1497207191 in 2012 only 11% of NHS trust's were in net deficit , in 2016 65% were , if we have been chucking money at it , why would this be do you think ?

larrygrylls · 01/12/2019 21:25

Marsha,

Following my supermarket analogy, I guess I would prefer the NHS to be privatised with the poorest being given basic insurance (in the same way as our poorest are not allowed to starve).

I do believe that a competitive private sector delivers better value for money than a bloated and badly managed state business.

This is not ‘the US’ as we could choose our level of basic subsidy well above the US.

Before anyone says I would be creating a two tier health system, we already have one. Fewer and fewer with money are using NHS GPS and we are already seeing private A&Es opening in London.

XingMing · 01/12/2019 21:40

No, Frumpety, I meant exactly the opposite. People aged over 85 should only be eligible for palliative and emergency care. My MIL does not want anyone trying to resuscitate her at 90.

XingMing · 01/12/2019 21:50

MIL doesn't take the tablets prescribed for her at least 50% of the time. Their side effects are often unpleasant and at 90, her view is "What am I being kept alive for? I am immobile, and incontinent, and almost everyone I loved or was friends with has died now." She has several chronic illnesses, including dementia, but nothing terminal. However, she is never going to be "well" again.

rockingthelook · 01/12/2019 21:50

I work in the NHS, and love it, but I do end up working much more than my contracted hours, as do all of my other colleagues, there is just so much work to do. Some people in my hospital aren't very nice at all, God knows how the hell they were ever employed, but have been there so long they are virtually unsackable, the unions protect people so much, they would probably have to kill the M.D to be sacked! There is so much red tape, even a policy about policies, it takes ages to recruit people, covering maternity usually means the replacement starts just as the person is returning. The standard of food and cleaning in my hospital is good, thankfully all inhouse, God helps us if it was contracted out.
As regarding patients, very few seem to think they have any personal responsibility for their own health, so many patients I see are obese, even the young, when I went into work through the main doors last week there were two guys(one a patient) discussing a drugs deal , also seen in the last week a heavily pregnant girl smoking, and a regular ocurrence of patients in wheelchairs smoking whilst coughing their heads off sat outside, beggars belief. Labour control the Welsh healthservice and give free prescriptions to all, a huge mistake, imagine if everyone paid just £1, the revenue would be so helpful?
Crutches, zimmer frames etc given for free, not collected afterwards or handed in, classed as too much hassle to refurb, clean and reuse, unbelievable waste.
The sick and annual leave entitlement, plus enhanced pay rates for weekends and after hours is great, so much better than my last job in the private sector, if I'm offered overtime at these times, even if I'm tired, I jump at it, makes such a difference to my pay , some people also get pay protetion is they change things in your role, previously I've been given notice of change, then it's happened, like it or not. I also think nursing bursaries should come back to encourage recruitment, which ever government is in, I fail to see just how things can change radically, there's so much to be done

Alsohuman · 01/12/2019 21:54

@XingMing, dementia is terminal. It’s the biggest cause of death now.

MarshaBradyo · 01/12/2019 21:54

Interesting Larry thanks, didn’t know that about private A&Es

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