Another Universal Credit rant

[Basecamp65]

I am supporting a man who has serious MH issues - he was released from prison 3 months ago after serving 5 years - he was sectioned twice in the last year whilst in prison and was on 15min suicide watch until the moment of release.

He has been signed off sick by the GP and has had his work capacity interview and is waiting for the result.

He worked every day of his life from 14 until he went to prison at 38 and wants to go back to work but the thought of working 35hrs a week is far too daunting for him right now - he cannot leave the house on his own.

A friend has offered him a few hours a week working at a kennels, cleaning down the cubicles and walking some of the dogs. He feels like he could cope with this as he does not have to talk to anyone and at only 2 hrs a day 3 days a week it is not too overwhelming. He feels this could be a real starting point - it is possible he could increase his hrs at the kennels until he is pretty much full time as he feels better and more able to cope with the world. Obviously this would not be enough to live on - his rent alone is £1200pcm for a single room in a hostel.

I spoke to the universal credit helpline and have been told that if his assessment comes back that he is either totally unable to work or has limited capability to work taking this job will nul and void this decision and he may be determined fit for work and forced to look for full time work. This decision will be made by a decision maker that has never met or spoken to him, not by his job coach or anyone who has actually met him.

He now feels completely unable to take this risk and has turned down the job. I think most people will agree there is a massive difference between being able to work a few hours a week as a stepping stone and being able to work full time. Surely the limited capability to work should mean he could take a small job like this - and in theory it does - but apparently even if this is accepted it would only be for 12 months and then he would be expected to be working full time.

Of course it may be accepted that this job still meets the criteria for limited capacity to work and he may progress really well and be ready for full time work in 12 months but the risk is far to great for him to take.

If he is found to have no capacity to work he will get extra benefit that would be more than he earns but he would still rather try this small job and get less benefit but that comes with such a risk he cannot do this. He also may start this job and find he cannot cope even with this and then the whole work capacity assessment would have to start all over again.

My brother is in the limited capacity to work bracket for mental health issues as well and does absolutely nothing at all and continues to receive money - I spoke to him about this and he was told the same - he was offered a small job helping a mate on market stalls on a Saturday and he had to refuse it for the same reason. He feels if he had been able to take this job he would be doing much better now - maybe not working full time but certainly working. He was a welfare rights lawyer - on £60K before having his catastrophic breakdown and he says this is the way UC works.

I have done so much work with this man and had got him to a point he felt he could begin his life again - albeit gradually - and Universal Credit has just kicked him back down - I left him today saying he wants to go back to prison as life on universal credit in a hostel is so crap it is little better than prison and comes with all sorts of hassle - in prison he was left alone.

AIBU in being really pissed off - this all seemed to me to be a really great option, allowing him to build up his confidence and stamina but apparently not - in universal credit land a single man is either unable to work at all or able to work full time and there is little option in between.

Has anyone any experience of these decisions - what is the likelihood of him being accepted as only able to work these hours and what happens after 12 months?

What you describe would have come under permitted work for ESA, but that doesn't exist under UC. He could in theory do the work and be deemed unfit for work related activity, but many people have found themselves reviewed and found fit for work in the given circumstances.

I hope your friend is registered to vote, so we can get rid of this awful system and improve mental health services.

Yanbu universal credit and dwp/job seekers don't care at all about people. It's all about meeting targets and showing figures. They have mandatory classes where a person with a PhD has to go learn how to write. It's unbelievable. They do so much damage to claimants self esteem then expect them to go into any full time work even if it will make them ill.

Does doing a voluntary role affect universal credit? For the short term he could stay on full benefits, as unfit to work but do a few hours per week cleaning the kennels on a voluntary basis. This would be a great way of building up to doing full time or near full time. Apologies if this is not the case.

I have the displeasure of having a dwp employer in the people that I have to occasionally socialise with. They once told a "funny story" about how they spent their day with their colleagues playing "jobseeker bingo" with stuff like callers have said "I can't afford food", "I have no heat", etc whilst laughing they couldn't understand why I didn't laugh and just left the room. I try and avoid this person wheneber I can. Ugh.

@StylishMummy well you're nice, aren't you? . I'm assuming this nam has served his dues hence him being released. What do you suggest happens to ex prisoners? Should there just rot on the streets??

OP you may well work for MIND, but of not, can you speak with them and see what support and advice they can give? UC is beyond fucking awful, whoever justifies its existence should be ashamed of themselves.

1200pcm for a room in a hostel?!

anyway, yes UC is shite. Very stupid as obviously there is a big difference between working a few hours a week and FT. It doesn't encourage anyone to even try and work in my opinion, its horrendous.

Also, stylish I don't personally find that prison terms reflect how bad the crime was. You get more for theft than you do murder these days. And you know what, this guy is trying. He could have come straight out and re offended again, but he hasn't and he clearly wants to make his life better. I personally think that's great.

I cant give you any advice OP but I hope someone comes along who can!

StylishMummy - great so can you explain how your approach prevents future victims of crime...……….. maybe this type of tailor support is exactly what people need to enable them to remain within the law. Maybe if tailored MH support had been in place 5 years ago he would not have been sent to prison and saved the tax payer an estimated £1m

I was not in any way asking for rules to be bent for him - my brother committed no crime and has been damaged by the same rule. Most people damaged by these rules will not have committed any crime. I was merely pointing out how the rules are damaging people and potentially leading to more crime.

@StylishMummy, ignoring all the circumstances that can result in a prison sentence, especially for those with, MH/Addiction/LDs.

I take it that you don't want people rehabilitated and supported to a better way of life?

UC was a punishment for being poor and nothing else.

This is a dreadful state of affairs OP. I have no advice I am afraid except to say maybe this situation is worth bringing to the attention of your local MP. More cracks seem to be opening up in the UC system than ever.One does wonder if it is fit for purpose.I have nothing to offer except my sympathies for anyone who is tangled up in this situation.

I used to be straight as a dice and would never have advised this but the utter Devastation of families I have witnessed as a result of universal credit has changed my opinion.

So, would his friend be willing to employ him cash in hand off the books?

Bollykecks - I know £1200!!!

My brother became homeless as a result of his breakdown and he now has a studio flat - from the local Council - £798pcm for a social housing studio flat!!!!

And we are not in London.

why should the state flex the rules for him?

They shouldn’t. They should make better rules in the first place.

I'm helping support a friend's adult son, he is a young man with autism, who at the moment is stuck in the nightmare of Universal Credit now that ESA no longer exists.

I'm fairly sure that DWP are breaching the Equality Act 2010 (disability discrimation) and have told the medical assessor this. We've also explained that even a home visit requires a set of risk assessments for all concerned as the young man has previously put people and himself in hospital when stressed by strangers and authority figures.

We await the assessor's decision.

The system is dangerous.

Unsurprisingly, the UC helpline is giving out inaccurate info again.

If the assessment finds him to be unfit for work, then he can take the job while still getting the extra UC money (LCWRA element), but there is a risk that the DWP will choose to reassess his capability for work. This won't happen automatically, and certainly doesn't render the assessment decision 'null and void' - I would be arguing when I reported the work that it was only accepted because it is very part-time, no contact with others, no stress, etc, and taking it is not indicative that he is ready to seek full-time work.

If they did reassess him immediately and find him capable of work, I would appeal that decision. Of course, he might not want to take the risk of that hassle, and who can blame him.

Hont - thanks for this - I was told if he was in the LCWRA group it would stop his extra money immediately and he would go into the Limited Capability for work group - then it was up to a decision maker to decide if he was now fit for work.

It is worth knowing this but I guess for most people in this situation the notion of having to argue and appeal is just too much to face.

Right now I advised him to try and stall the job until he gets the outcome of the assessment and then make a decision - but I'm not sure he will.

I'm on the old style esa and if I was in the permitted work group I'd be able to do this so why shouldn't he.
Could he do the job voluntary for now see how he gets on, hopefully give him a confidence boost and could lead to other things or provide a reference. This way it won't effect his benefits.

As far as I know, that's wrong. I've definitely never heard of them being able to switch someone from LCWRA to LCW just for starting work. He should keep LCWRA status, even if he does have earnings.

I think it is probably true that a decision maker might look again at whether a new Work Capability Assessment is needed, but I would try to minimise the possibility of this by explaining the circumstances of the job. You never know, they might decide that it's fine - but of course, who wants to risk £336 per month on "might"?

Can't he volunteer at the kennels?

OP, I’m in a similar situation having been out of work for a year due to a breakdown. I have recently been placed in the LCWRA group and offered an 8 hour a week job by someone I used to work for years ago. EntitledTo and Whatdotheyknow.com both state people in the LCW or LCWRA groups of UC can work as long as it averages less than 16 hours per week. They can also volunteer. The UC helpline is really frustrating as different call handlers will tell you different things!

Hint - AmeliaFolch - thanks for this - it is giving me a bit more hope - I think we need to see which category he is placed in.

Voluntary work would only work in the short term - if he does well and increases his hours he is going to want payment at some point and this situation will arise as it will probably be well before he is working full time. Knowing him - I really do not think he would have the motivation to keep going on the tough days - and he will have tough days - if he was not getting paid - and its going on those days that will make the difference in the long term. He has helped out a couple of times voluntary already but this is a much more regular commitment.

Should have been HONT not HINT!!!

Tough as it is he really needs to find that motivation if he really is determined to get to a point where he can work full time.

You both think this 6 hours a week will boost his confidence, help him build himself up etc yet he'll only do it if he's paid? That's the point that people start to lose sympathy

Can he just start as a volunteer for now so as not to affect benefits? I think UC is very unfair and it s known that contact with animals can improve people s MH. I know having my cat to care for really helps when I have depressive episodes.
Good luck to him. It s not easy coming out of prison and staying on the right side of the law and that s why there are tailored services to help.
Sadly UC doesn't seem to help anyone.

That's the point that people start to lose sympathy

I don't start to lose sympathy. One or two hours a week, that's volunteering. Two hours a day, three times a week, every week, that's work. And it's right that he should be paid for work.