Another Universal Credit rant

[Basecamp65]

I am supporting a man who has serious MH issues - he was released from prison 3 months ago after serving 5 years - he was sectioned twice in the last year whilst in prison and was on 15min suicide watch until the moment of release.

He has been signed off sick by the GP and has had his work capacity interview and is waiting for the result.

He worked every day of his life from 14 until he went to prison at 38 and wants to go back to work but the thought of working 35hrs a week is far too daunting for him right now - he cannot leave the house on his own.

A friend has offered him a few hours a week working at a kennels, cleaning down the cubicles and walking some of the dogs. He feels like he could cope with this as he does not have to talk to anyone and at only 2 hrs a day 3 days a week it is not too overwhelming. He feels this could be a real starting point - it is possible he could increase his hrs at the kennels until he is pretty much full time as he feels better and more able to cope with the world. Obviously this would not be enough to live on - his rent alone is £1200pcm for a single room in a hostel.

I spoke to the universal credit helpline and have been told that if his assessment comes back that he is either totally unable to work or has limited capability to work taking this job will nul and void this decision and he may be determined fit for work and forced to look for full time work. This decision will be made by a decision maker that has never met or spoken to him, not by his job coach or anyone who has actually met him.

He now feels completely unable to take this risk and has turned down the job. I think most people will agree there is a massive difference between being able to work a few hours a week as a stepping stone and being able to work full time. Surely the limited capability to work should mean he could take a small job like this - and in theory it does - but apparently even if this is accepted it would only be for 12 months and then he would be expected to be working full time.

Of course it may be accepted that this job still meets the criteria for limited capacity to work and he may progress really well and be ready for full time work in 12 months but the risk is far to great for him to take.

If he is found to have no capacity to work he will get extra benefit that would be more than he earns but he would still rather try this small job and get less benefit but that comes with such a risk he cannot do this. He also may start this job and find he cannot cope even with this and then the whole work capacity assessment would have to start all over again.

My brother is in the limited capacity to work bracket for mental health issues as well and does absolutely nothing at all and continues to receive money - I spoke to him about this and he was told the same - he was offered a small job helping a mate on market stalls on a Saturday and he had to refuse it for the same reason. He feels if he had been able to take this job he would be doing much better now - maybe not working full time but certainly working. He was a welfare rights lawyer - on £60K before having his catastrophic breakdown and he says this is the way UC works.

I have done so much work with this man and had got him to a point he felt he could begin his life again - albeit gradually - and Universal Credit has just kicked him back down - I left him today saying he wants to go back to prison as life on universal credit in a hostel is so crap it is little better than prison and comes with all sorts of hassle - in prison he was left alone.

AIBU in being really pissed off - this all seemed to me to be a really great option, allowing him to build up his confidence and stamina but apparently not - in universal credit land a single man is either unable to work at all or able to work full time and there is little option in between.

Has anyone any experience of these decisions - what is the likelihood of him being accepted as only able to work these hours and what happens after 12 months?

What i actually said was I THOUGHT he would struggle for motivation if he was not being paid - how has this become - he would refuse to volunteer?

What I have said is that I THOUGHT this would not work in the long term as on someone with serious depressions bad days - those days when they think the world would be better off without them, on those days where they really cannot face the world - the additional motivation of having some money to be able to afford to simply take his kids to McDonalds might just be the additional motivation he needs to push through the hurt and pain and get himself to work. Being able to do something for his kids might be exactly the push he needs.

He has actually helped out on an informal basis just a couple of hours here and there - so he is volunteering currently! However, if he remains on an adhoc volunteering position he will always just be able to call in sick when everything simply seems too much.

His friend is the one pushing to turn this into a more formal position as he believes the additional - albeit small initially - commitment may help him - he also does not want to take advantage of him and wants to pay him for the work he does.

Everything he has ever done is for his kids - even the crime he committed - and they are the sole reason he has not ended it or got himself sent back to prison but some days he really believes they will be better off without him as he has nothing to offer them. Some pie in the sky jam tomorrow will not cut it for most people with serious depression - it needs to be a tangible pretty instant reward.

Sorry but you were really unfair in saying I said he would refuse to volunteer - I said nothing of the sort. I said he would turn this job down if it meant UC could declare him fit for work and make him look for full time work. I said even if he lost the additional money he would still rather work.

I don't actually think I said anywhere what he feels about this at all!!!!

This is a good guide to LCWRA and working- www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Universal-Credit/Additional-Elements-of-Universal-Credit

Haven't read through the full thread - sorry - but I think it may be worth asking CAB to do a check using their own benefits calculator. It includes an option for entering his group.

If he's in either LCW or LCWRA I think he can keep his status BUT the premium will taper according to how much he earns. So he should be able to work and get his premium, but at a reduced rate, which makes sense.

I suppose how much he is expected to work depends on his claimant commitment but it would make sense that he works because he is undertaking an activity that is enhancing his future prospects and bettering his ability to cope with working life.

Depends on how his Job Coach views it, really.

A few more bits of guidance for you OP-
data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2019-0980/143._WCA_for_claimants_in_employment_v10.0.pdf

cpag.org.uk/welfare-rights/resources/article/uc-and-wca-–-some-questions-and-answers

YANBU

Thanks for the advice - this is what I need - the rules on the different groups and working - it appears the UC helpline I rang may have given me poor advice. I am very capable of arguing and putting my case when I know the law, but my massive experience in Welfare Rights was a fair few years ago and long before UC so I am unsure of the current laws.

We do not know which group he is in - as we have not had the decision yet! He has been on the sick the whole time so not got any work commitments or have a work coach.

As I said this is not actually about the benefits levels - it is about his work commitments and whether taking a job could mean UC declare him fit for work and make him look for full time work when he really is not ready for that.

I would wait until the LCW outcome before deciding to be honest. And he will have a work allowance applied- if he earns up to that amount it will be disregarded anyways. In terms of if he loses the LCW/LCWRA- it’s anyone’s guess. However, much like the permitted work under ESA, the work allowance can be used- it usually works out to be 16 hours x NMW for those with LCWRA.
If he is assessed as LCWRA then he won’t have a work coach or mandatory office appointments. He will just have a case manager based in a service centre

I think the government have a very distorted and prejudiced view about disability. Every policy they have marginalises & degrades the vulnerable blaming them for their illness or conditions. I find in indefensible that they prefer to pay out more taxpayers money to continue unfair assessments and policies that kill than pay the benefits in the first place #CRPD

Hmm base I struggle to see how anyone can justify a crime as being 'for the kids'. It's something I hear all too often in my line of work and is a minimisation or justification. His kids may well have been the motivation behind it, indeed there may have been nothing at all wrong with his goal. It is the way he went about achieving that goal that seems problematic.

Has he met his probation officer yet? It might be an idea for them to do some 1:1 wirk with him. There's also programmes ran by probation that address problem solving and self management. People think self management is anger but not always. It can be aboyt managing lack of motivation or those down days. I'd look into it.

I disagree that you get less for murder than theft! That's anecdotal newspaper stuff. Sentences are harder than most realise. To have 5 years inside it must have been something serious ish. It wouldn't ha e been shoplifting to feed them for example!

Anyway, yes I do believe everyone should have another chance. No i don't like this system. But apart from using our votes there's nothing we can do about that fir now.

I definitely agree do not promote cash in hand work obviously! I do this k volunteering is a good idea. I do get what you mean around the motivation - however (and this is odd) but could the kids help take the dogs for a walk etc? Bif of a treat for them? Ultimately I would still say carry on volunteering. 6hrs a week is volunteering hours really I, did it when unemployed. I absolutely loved volunteering. It gave me so much more than money - a sense of purpose and worth amongst others. Even if some days he can't go in, having a regular routine etc might help.

I would speak to his probation officer too. Side query, but you mentioned he has quite severe depression but also drinks (his friend buys beer). I would be cautious of the link. I'm not saying it happens, but release from prison, reintroduced to society and the stresses it brings, UC stress, self confidence, mental health... If the drinking is to manage those I'd be wary

@Madien1995 I am sure you meant well but his probation officer could not even spare the time to make sure he got registered with a GP to get his life saving insulin so I really do not think she is going to do any one to one with him. I'm not sure what she is supposed to do because after 4 months we simply do not understand why he is going - there appears to be absolutely no point.

If he can do the job my OP was about he will be absolutely fine - it might be two steps forwards and one back but he will be fine without any help from anyone else. My OP was about the frustration that the best solution for him was being scuppered if he choose to obey the law. It turns out the advice given by the UC helpline is really poor and the fact that thousands of people will be getting poor advice from the government funded official helpline is criminal by anyone's morality surely???? But anyway it looks like he will be able to do this job and not be forced back into full time work until he is ready which is what my OP was about. I am sure that the longer he is out of prison and able to spend his time with people who know and care about him he will continue to improve. If not it will be mental health help he needs from medical professionals - nothing else.

He really does not have a drinking problem - that actually made me laugh. As did your comment about the kids taking the dogs for a walk being a treat - errr they have their own dog they walk regularly. Plus I think there would almost certainly be insurance issues with them walking dogs at a boarding kennels as well.

It"d be interesting to know what the outcome is, OP.

base I'm shocked he hasn't seen his officer. At the least he should be having weekly or fortnightly reporting. His long has he been out, and has he had any letters etc? If he's been out a while I would encourage him to contact them. It shouldn't happen buy people can slip through the cracks. If trying to contact probation doesn't work, go there with them with him and ask to see duty and they'll sort you an appointment. He should be seen regularly particularly in the early days of release.

Re tjr alcohol, I'm not saying he has a drink problem - just possibly to keep an eye on it particularly through stressful rinew

I agree UC is crap and esa was much better. It'd tricky - work and risk UC or volunteer anf have UC but lose that extra motivation in hard times. It's a hard decision to make and it's one only you guys can do

But do keep onto probation

base his probation officers job is to manage risk, primarily risk of harm to self or public. Also monitor risk of reoffendkng, manage that risk and address reasons behind it

YANBU - I've often said this myself.

Theres 3 decisions that can be made after a work capability decision.

1. capable for work
2. limited capability for work
3. limited capability for work and work related activity

If someone was working or volunteering then 3 isn't an option. This is the one that comes with the extra money and for someone who is in a bad way, it's what makes a real difference financially. Also theres no burden of mandatory appointments.
If someone was working or volunteering, any DM worth there salt would attempt to ring the customer and have a chat with them. This could mean placing in option 2 and allowing the work taper to be applied.

His housing should be coming via housing benefit though as temp accommodation so any paid work should be checked to see how they assess it

"If someone was working or volunteering then 3 isn't an option"

That's not true. There are various circumstances why someone might get LCWRA even if they were working or volunteering (e.g. if there was a substantial risk to their health, or they were having chemotherapy/radiotherapy, etc). If they haven't already had their WCA result then earning over 16xNMW would rule out getting options 2 or 3 though (since the WCA wouldn't be done).

I am sorry if I have given the impression he had not seen his probation officer - he has every week for 12 weeks and monthly for the last month - he has seen her 13/14times.

The first visit on the day of release took 15mins and she simply ran through his license conditions.

The next 11/12 consisted of the following

What have you been up to? - seeing the kids spending time with friends
Have you been in contact with any of your co-d's? - No
Have you committed any crime? - No
Are you still living at...….? - Yes

Ok I'll see you next time in.....

all but two of these meetings have taken less than 5 mins.

At about no 7 meeting she asked him what had lead to the offending and copied what he said down but this has not led to any further discussion or any suggestions - it literally has never been mentioned again

As we said after 13/14 visits we are still unclear what probation is supposed to do and cannot see what the point is. She cannot possibly be assessing any kind of risk as she knows nothing about him and has absolutely no knowledge if what he is saying is true. That might be what is supposed to happen in theory but I cannot see how this is even remotely being achieved.

But we are all extremely happy with this - he absolutely does not want their involvement in his life at all - he is forced to attend these appointments so he does - but see's absolutely no value in them. He knows not a single person he met in prison said probation were worth having and this has been absolutely our experience.

But even if they were offering all sorts of support and training - there is nothing we can think of that he could benefit from. We simply have no need of their involvement so quite happy with it the way it is - just a waste of time and money. If we need help like we did about the benefits on this thread the people around him are far more than capable of finding out that information and acting appropriately on it. We are not looking for help and support - thanks for all the suggestions but this what not what I was asking for at all.

I spoke to him this morning as he asked if I had found out what we needed to know and I said yes - he read the thread and pointed something out that I had not picked up on.

Many of the posters have assumed that taking this 6 hrs as voluntary was an option - it is not his decision to make - it is the decision of the owner of the kennels - obvious when he says it. The owner will not allow him to do these six hours voluntary. These are 6 hrs that a current employee had reduced their hours by. He is happy for our friend to have them as a paid job but if not, he will offer them to another paid worker as additional hours. He thinks there may be legal issues in replacing paid work by volunteers - certainly it is not something he would do.

He has never had volunteers and is fine with our friend turning up every week or so when they are having a chat and he lends a hand but a regular set time and hours absolutely not - this will need to be paid.

But as I have said many times this is about if taking this job would he run the risk of being determined as fit for work and being forced to look for full time work - something he really is not well enough to do just now. This is not about us needing any kind of support from anywhere - we don't - nor is about the amount of benefit he may get.

I have now had the answer to this and should change the title of the thread to a Rant About How Useless The UC Helpline Is!!!

Universal credit is a joke. It effects so many people negatively. It needs scrapping. The tories are a joke to have introduced it in the first place. Vote Labour and get it scrapped!

As a former Welfare Benefits Adviser for CAB, I strongly advise you get assistance from the WB adviser at your local bureau. As you all know, the benefits system is full of idiosyncratic regulations and navigating your way through is a tricky business! The key will be getting the best LCW/LCWRA decision and a good Work Coach to help him negotiate his personal commitment.

How sad, thank goodness there are people like Basecamp there to support this gentleman, it doesn't look like anyone else is, and my heart goes out to this man. He has committed a crime, and paid the price. The judgemental tone of some of the posts here perhaps gives a glance into some of the reasons why many offenders DO re-offend, they are hardly supported to rehabilitate.

I share something with this man, I have severe mental illness, I hope that one day I may be able to manage to work a few days weekly, and understand completely why payment would be important even for a few hours in respect of his self pride. As for not doing the best for his children, part of mental illness is the loss of awareness of logical actions, his children may not care what the provenance is of the the money he uses to purchase their Xmas gift, but for him this might be a HUGE driver, and the only reason he is able to overcome his fears and anxiety to go out into the big bad world for a few hours.

Yet another victim of universal credit.....ive just read about the lad comming out of prison with mental health issues i can emperthise with him as i myself am an IPP/ISPP (indeterminate sentence for public protection) this illegal now abolished sentence still has over 6000 prisoners on it....i was given my IPP for serious GBH on a peadophile that was grooming my niece i wnt go into the ins n outs as it dnt really matter however the mental state this sentece leaves on you can last a life time as you are on a life licence and can be wrongly recalled for absolutely anything (i know as my last recall was deemed illegal this having spent over a year bk inside for doing no wrong this time) along with normal prisoner mental health issues an IPP has alot more to put up with so along with those issues leaving prison i have suffered severe PTSD documented both before and after going through the prison system suffering anxiety panic attacks and bputs of dark depression i dnt have good n bad days but i do have good n bad times during every day...along with my MH issues i have prolapsed discs in my back and lack of cartiladge in both knees which can at times make me unable to walk....aling with an inflamed prostate over the last year being investigated prodded n poked to try n find out reason for the inflamation the DWP in thier wisdom kicked me off ESA (claimed for 3yrs and previously incapasity benifit claimed 4yrs before all the prison time) saying im obviously fit for work eventhough the DWPs frontline jobcentere staff have on 2 seperate occasions wanted to call the mental health crisis team and even my work coach on UC telling me and my daughter i shouldnt be capable for work at mo im still being forced to look for work on top of my very high risk status to the public as deemed by the justice system ignored by DWP they have now accepted a 6month sick note but wnt sign me off onto the sick or support group as i was in on ESA.. ... i have found it near enough impospable to seek representation without folking out over 1500 pound (lowest quote to date) now in the tribunal stage (been at this stage without a court date for over 7months) i feel at a loss what i can do next or where to turn....yes i have been to CAB however because i can articulate and write my own reports just as good or even better (as theyve take a copy to help others out) they are unable to see how they can help me personally (but i do highly reccomend anyone to seek CAB advice) i am asking any of you lot out there if thers anyone i can get free help and accompiment to the tribunal so im not foghting this injustice alone....as yeh ive been in jail with 1000s of cons but the biggest con ive ever seen is this UC.......if any of you lovely people can point me in the right direction id more than appreciate it as it wnt just help me out but others too as once i get through this i want to help others that are facing this injustice....
Its all about the tories saving money to pay off europe as in reality the DWP could have transferred me over to UC sick rather than kicking people off ESA forcing them.to claim basic UC i have 3 kids n 3 geandkids that i help support so i live off 2tins of beans and a loaf bread per week so i can help them...i dnt drink smoke or do drugs yet now im having to seriously think about moving out my rented house into a bedsit where id be unable to see n look after my kids/Gkids .....yeh i can hear the ones of you that say well your just an ex con you dnt deserve any help but the 18 or so thousand Esa n rent/council tax benifits doesnt compare to the over 100 thousand ot cost to keep an IPP like me in jail not to mention my crime in certain countrys id been given a medal not a sentece along with fighting for my country in iraq as part of royal navy i think im on an even ratio....thank you for reading my rant as its sometimes good to get things off your chest....i hope someone put there can direct me to the right help...ahain thank you

If he is in LCW or LCWRA he will have s Work allowance. A bit like Permitted Work. If he is found Fit for Work there will be a reduction of 63p in every £1 he earns. You will need to check as supported housing has its own rules. www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-work-allowances/universal-credit-work-allowances

Unfortunately, there is MUCH worse planned for those with mental health challenges.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/16/boris-johnson-working-harder-mental-health-tax-privatising-nhs?fbclid=IwAR14w5g3DT5_3Zm6LHl4jqAZRjdJbF8Y5ymnBYVnI9w1Lcoi0km-GU6P4zQ

@AutumnCrow my sister had a letter written by one of her support workers stating that she was unable to handle anything face to face. Surprisingly it was actually accepted (I say surprisingly, it was absolutely genuine, but I'm surprised that the system gave a hoot). It might be worth exploring that option?