Another Universal Credit rant

[Basecamp65]

I am supporting a man who has serious MH issues - he was released from prison 3 months ago after serving 5 years - he was sectioned twice in the last year whilst in prison and was on 15min suicide watch until the moment of release.

He has been signed off sick by the GP and has had his work capacity interview and is waiting for the result.

He worked every day of his life from 14 until he went to prison at 38 and wants to go back to work but the thought of working 35hrs a week is far too daunting for him right now - he cannot leave the house on his own.

A friend has offered him a few hours a week working at a kennels, cleaning down the cubicles and walking some of the dogs. He feels like he could cope with this as he does not have to talk to anyone and at only 2 hrs a day 3 days a week it is not too overwhelming. He feels this could be a real starting point - it is possible he could increase his hrs at the kennels until he is pretty much full time as he feels better and more able to cope with the world. Obviously this would not be enough to live on - his rent alone is £1200pcm for a single room in a hostel.

I spoke to the universal credit helpline and have been told that if his assessment comes back that he is either totally unable to work or has limited capability to work taking this job will nul and void this decision and he may be determined fit for work and forced to look for full time work. This decision will be made by a decision maker that has never met or spoken to him, not by his job coach or anyone who has actually met him.

He now feels completely unable to take this risk and has turned down the job. I think most people will agree there is a massive difference between being able to work a few hours a week as a stepping stone and being able to work full time. Surely the limited capability to work should mean he could take a small job like this - and in theory it does - but apparently even if this is accepted it would only be for 12 months and then he would be expected to be working full time.

Of course it may be accepted that this job still meets the criteria for limited capacity to work and he may progress really well and be ready for full time work in 12 months but the risk is far to great for him to take.

If he is found to have no capacity to work he will get extra benefit that would be more than he earns but he would still rather try this small job and get less benefit but that comes with such a risk he cannot do this. He also may start this job and find he cannot cope even with this and then the whole work capacity assessment would have to start all over again.

My brother is in the limited capacity to work bracket for mental health issues as well and does absolutely nothing at all and continues to receive money - I spoke to him about this and he was told the same - he was offered a small job helping a mate on market stalls on a Saturday and he had to refuse it for the same reason. He feels if he had been able to take this job he would be doing much better now - maybe not working full time but certainly working. He was a welfare rights lawyer - on £60K before having his catastrophic breakdown and he says this is the way UC works.

I have done so much work with this man and had got him to a point he felt he could begin his life again - albeit gradually - and Universal Credit has just kicked him back down - I left him today saying he wants to go back to prison as life on universal credit in a hostel is so crap it is little better than prison and comes with all sorts of hassle - in prison he was left alone.

AIBU in being really pissed off - this all seemed to me to be a really great option, allowing him to build up his confidence and stamina but apparently not - in universal credit land a single man is either unable to work at all or able to work full time and there is little option in between.

Has anyone any experience of these decisions - what is the likelihood of him being accepted as only able to work these hours and what happens after 12 months?

That's the point that people start to lose sympathy

No it isn’t.

Work has a value. The government values work at a minimum of £8.21 per hour.

OP in his shoes I would ask if his friend would take him on as a “volunteer”

Crustycrab why shouldn't he get paid for working? The man is afraid that he will get forced into looking for full time work, which he's clearly not ready for. Surely lack of sympathy would be more appropriate if he was refusing to even try.

@IWorkAtTheCheesecakeFactory you are suggesting the OP asks her friend to break the law as well as this offender she's trying to help? Great plan

I didn't say that he shouldn't be paid to work. Of course the system is crap, along with many other systems. We can't do anything about that, and OP claims that this man is determined to get himself better and back into full time work.

He now has an opportunity to work towards that and if he doesn't take the opportunity simply because the UC system is shit and he therefore won't be paid for the hours he works/volunteers (he will still be paid benefits though), I lose sympathy and think many others will too.

Crustycrab - As I said - he has volunteered already - but if you have serious depression - and so serious he has been sectioned twice - to suggest he can magically just find motivation to go and work for someone for free is a tad unrealistic to be polite.

in all fairness I have worked all my life and I only go because I get paid.

All I said was being paid was the extra motivation that might be needed on the tough days - those days when he is deciding whether to go to work or stay in bed as he really wants to do - two months ago he spent 3 weeks in bed - he did not get up except to go to the toilet and he even went 3 days without eating.

He is now motivated enough to think about this job as a real possibility. He is getting up and dressed on the days he has volunteered and is seeing the meagre £16 he would earn for 2 hrs work as a way to buy some clothes/decent food/take his children out - without that ADDITIONAL motivation I think he - like the majority of people with serious depression - would struggle to maintain AND INCREASE this level of voluntary work.

I know a couple of people have suggested 'volunteering' in apostrophes!!! the implications for him if he gets caught are serious - an immediate recall to prison, loss of his hostel place, loss of all his belongings and the loss of this promising job. But far far more importantly he has just reestablished contact with his children and his Mum and a recall to prison could destroy this. His mate has bought him a take away and a few beers and gave him some clothes for his help already but they want to put it on a more formal footing.

If it was my brother I would be suggesting this but to someone on license the risks are far too high.

Sorry but no. I just can't dredge up the sympathy for that. £8.00 can manage to motivate him to go to these kennels for a couple of hours but his children can't?

I have sympathy for his health, sympathy for being stuck in the shitty systems created by our governments.

I have absolutely no sympathy for a parent who turns down an opportunity to improve himself and get on the path to where he needs to be only because the money he gets won't come from the kennel owner right now.

Urgh no advice but universal credit is a real s*it show . I’m on it myself and have seen through my old job the devastation is causes.

Hi - if he's been sectioned under s47/49 of the MHA (which he will have been if he was in prison) then he should have something called a s117 meeting plan which automatically means that theres a duty to have his needs assessed under adult social care, which Probation need to ensure happens. Contact his SO and see if they can get those notes (they'll be held electronically at the MOJ) as well as enquire about the social care assessment, as either/both may help with a UC claim.

Also dont forget that he cant work without permission to do so.

bloody hell fire @Basecamp65 - my mortgage on a 3 bed house is less then £500pcm!

is there any way he can move? saying that it might not be beneficial to his MH if he has support where he is now.

@Polpotnoodle he was released without anyone even checking he was being picked up or had a place to live. He is insulin dependant diabetic and he only had 24hrs insulin on release and no GP - or address. I know because I picked him up and he stayed at mine for a few days until I got a hostel sorted.

He was sectioned under the Act you mentioned but nothing mentioned about any on going support.

What permission does he need to work. probation have said nothing about this.

you are suggesting the OP asks her friend to break the law as well as this offender she's trying to help? Great plan

Yep. I’m suggesting exactly that. And I have no qualms about that anymore. This is what universal credit has done to people.

I didn't say that he shouldn't be paid to work.

You said people lose sympathy for him expecting to be paid for work he does. Meaning you think he shouldn’t expect to be paid.

Voluntary work should be exactly that- voluntary. Not because the person has no choice but to work for free. That bolsters no-ones self esteem. People are entitled to, and should, value their own labour.

If it was my brother I would be suggesting this but to someone on license the risks are far too high.

Totally understand that.

If he can't afford to live on meagre wages but can afford to live, see his kids etc on benefits surely it's a no brainer to go for the benefits Crab? How else do you envisage this scenario panning out?

@Basecamp65 I've messaged you.

Hi OP. I’ve just spoken to UC about my own circumstances and been told claimants in the LCW and LCWRA can work up to 16 hrs a week and earn £287 a month before any UC is deducted. Good luck to the person you’re helping. I’m lucky to have a supportive family but it’s shocking how many vulnerable people are left to sink or swim alone nowadays.

Barren absolutely it's a no brainer to go for the benefits. The OPs AIBU started with 6 hours at the kennels will build his confidence and his stamina and help him get to his goal of FT employment.

I suggested he takes the benefits but volunteers at the kennels. He then is getting money from UC but also his mental health is benefiting from his work at the kennels, albeit voluntary for now.

The system is obviously wrong but in this situation he has to accept that and I can't have sympathy for him turning down an opportunity simply because his money will have to come from UC rather than the kennel owner. Shit as that may be.

My mind is that it's a no brainer to claim UC AND volunteer a few hours a week at the kennels. It's also a no brainer for him not to breach his licence by breaking the law again

@IWorkAtTheCheesecakeFactory

"You said people lose sympathy for him expecting to be paid for work he does. Meaning you think he shouldn’t expect to be paid."

Where the hell did I say that? We all expect to be paid for hours worked and quite rightly. The system as you are aware doesn't quite work like that with UC unfortunately.

But the purpose of this job is to build his confidence, build his stamina apparently. It's a confidence builder to help him prepare for the FT employment he's aiming for. So for him to say "If I'm not getting paid for it I won't go" is irresponsible. He's stuck in a shit system and also cutting off his nose to spite his face. Why?!

Where the hell did I say that?

You both think this 6 hours a week will boost his confidence, help him build himself up etc yet he'll only do it if he's paid? That's the point that people start to lose sympathy

Now enough of your gaslighting bullshit.

Why would he possibly lose his money for taking a part-time job but not for volunteering? In theory someone could volunteer the same hours as someone with a part-time job, but still be classed as unfit for work?

Gaslighting 🤷🏽‍♀️😂 ffs

And that doesn't say I lose sympathy at him expecting to be paid. I lose sympathy at a parents refusal to do something they clearly need to simply because it's voluntary.

Gaslighting my arse, I'm sure picking and choosing the bits you want to hear is more gaslight worthy than anything I've said so back atcha

And that doesn't say I lose sympathy at him expecting to be paid. I lose sympathy at a parents refusal to do something they clearly need to simply because it's voluntary.

Voluntary work is unpaid. It's unpaid work. So what you are essentially saying is: "I lose sympathy at parents refusal to do something they clearly need to do (do some work) simply because it's unpaid."

Which means you do lose sympathy because he is ants to be paid for the work he does.

I'm probably not going to hang my head against this brick wall for much longer if posters can't read the OP nor her reasons for thinking the kennels would be good for him.

But to the pp who said:

"So what you are essentially saying is: "I lose sympathy at parents refusal to do something they clearly need to do (do some work) simply because it's unpaid."

No. That's not what I'm saying.

What I am essentially saying is: I lose sympathy at parents refusal to do something they clearly need to do (improve their confidence and stamina in their own words, to achieve their personal target of being able to work full time again) simply because it's unpaid."

So he should be keen to work six hours a week for free just because it might improve his confidence and stamina? He would be cleaning up dog piss and shit for minimum wage, and you sneer at him for not jumping at the chance, when it could potentially halve his benefits. No prizes for guessing who you'll be voting for.

Hahaha, you won't be winning any prize then. I'd rather stab my own fucking eyes out and then eat them.

I'm obviously not getting my point across here.

No, I don't think he should work for free. Unless it benefits him in some way. The OP believes it will and so does he.

I don't have a clue if volunteering would halve his benefits. The OP hasn't answered that question. I did ask if he could volunteer and OP answered that he'd refuse to do that. Even though he's cutting off his nose to spite his face.

@crustycrab - where have I said he would refuse to volunteer? where?????