to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

It is very much our business if Mary down the road is made to feel ashamed for having pain relief or intervention.

“ The real misogyny is in not listening and responding to the needs and wants of women giving birth and a dismissive attitude and that applies to women who want a physiological birth or those wanting epidural or caesareans.”
This. The only women being dismissed on this thread are those of us who choose to have as little intervention as possible. This is a vile and deeply misleading thread.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth

What are you classifying as "woo"?

If Mary down the road had a birth with a lot of interventions and feels bad afterwards, you can't know that's because people are making her feel ashamed. Some of us felt a bit shit after births like that because they were painful and terrifying.

Most women don’t need or want stronger pain relief than gas and air though do they. Only 30% of women globally choose an epidural. And while yes an elective c-section is better than an emergency c-section and an assisted birth in terms of long term damage, all three cause more long term pelvic floor damage than uncomplicated vaginal births. Those are the facts.

This. The only women being dismissed on this thread are those of us who choose to have as little intervention as possible. This is a vile and deeply misleading thread.

I'm thinking this as well.

That’s why I said ‘alive and well’ if Mary has been forced into a birth without the pain relief she wanted, she isn’t going to be well is she? She is going to be suffering mentally.

As women I hope we would all support Mary in her choice and support her in her recovery if she was denied what she wants.

The key words are choice and decision in any conversation around childbirth.

Most women don’t need or want stronger pain relief than gas and air though do they

Prepare to be flamed. Everyone's pain thresholds are different

@ Ginfordinner - it’s the facts though. Statistics don’t lie. People do.

Agreed.

I also think we should have consultant led birth instead of midwife. I had one dd overseas and the other in the UK and what a difference.

We should be able to make proper decisions about birth based on medical evidence not dogma about natural birth.

'Most women don’t need or want stronger pain relief than gas and air though do they

Who are MOST women?

Who's to say that a woman doesn't 'need' pain relief?

If a woman is coping well with the pain, but wants epidural or a section on a whim, she should receive just that - without anyone telling her that she should 'at least try' to give birth naturally, or 'wait a little bit longer' if she does not want to.

I mean, that was my experience. Took me a lot of fighting to get the epidural. I wanted it right there and then, therefore I needed it.

It's nothing to do with religion and all to do with money/ shortage of beds.
I warned the midwives before my last birth 4 months ago that I am a quick birther due to having extremely strong contractions in previous births where the pain is excruituating. They still didn't believe I was in established labour when I got there 'as I was able to talk' and would only let me have gas & air. 1.5 hours later I had the baby.

Completely agree that no one should be made to feel ashamed for their choices, and that modern intervention is a gift that saves lives. But there is nothing 'woo' about intervention free birth. I wanted an intervention free birth if possible (while being open to possibility of intervention) for lots of reasons , including hating being immobile, being prone to sickness and wanting water as pain relief. These choices are equally sensible if the pain is managable, and nothing to do with wanting to give birth in a meadow by moonlight.... Implying that women who want intervention free births are all woo is just another way of shaming women for their birth choices.

All my cousins on my mum's side were born by C-section - my brother and I are the only ones on her side of the family who were natural births. Doesn't make my aunties bad mothers. And giving birth is an unpredictable experience - I should know, my own birth had Mum being given oxygen cos the umbilical cord got wrapped round my neck! Having a C-section or needing drugs does not mean you've 'failed'. It's your body.

Agreed! There is definitely an air of you had a more successful birth if it was all natural. Frankly I call a successful birth everyone in one piece mentally and physically.

My first birth was absolutely traumatising, I suffered a 3C tear all on zero pain relief because I was surrounded by other mum to be friends doing the same thing and felt like I'd somehow fail if I had help. Well that was a mistake! I had a c section with my second and a few peoples responses were "oh no, I'm sorry. That's awful" upon me telling them it was a c section.

If people find planning for a completely natural birth helps them then I'm fully supportive of that, I just hate the fact it's announced like they're special for doing so and deserve a big shiny medal.

Most women don’t need or want stronger pain relief than gas and air though do they.

so what, then they should have that choice.
It doesn't mean those who NEED or even want more should not have access to them.

The way you give birth doesn't make you a better or a worst mother, or even a worst or better person. It doesn't matter one bit - the only thing that matters is that all women should have the CHOICE.

I also think we should have consultant led birth instead of midwife.
absolutely.

“Agreed! There is definitely an air of you had a more successful birth if it was all natural”
Not on this thread. On this thread you’re bonkers and a pawn of the patriarchy.

It's cool if you want an intervention free birth, really. I don't object to any choices an Individual woman makes. What I DO object to is the institutions and peer groups that push the narrative of, well, woo - as in, you're a goddess whose body was made for this, you can 'breathe the baby out', childbirth pain is good, or if not good, then it's not actually pain but just a 'sensation', intervention is an evil that must be avoided at all cost, c-sections make you a failure, and you'll never bond as closesly with your baby if you have one. As in, implying that giving birth naturally makes you a better mother. That, I object to very strongly.

If Debbie or Brenda choose to go the vaginal route and are happy with it, then more power to them. Let's not shame Mary who decided that she doesn't want to labour and chose an elective section though. She's done JUST AS WELL as Debbie and Brenda.

I agree we often minimise the dangers of a natural birth too. Birth injuries should not be accepted as normal in this day and age in the UK. We simply don’t value women’s health and life when it comes to birth and breastfeeding. The NHS needs to do better.

Implying that women who want intervention free births are all woo is just another way of shaming women for their birth choices.

no one is implying that though.
Lucky you if you could have one, and your choices were respected, that's all what people are saying.

I'm not reading it as OP dismissing women AT ALL. She isn't talking about the patients, she's talking about the way the people 'in charge' of the patients approach them. She is speaking about maternity care.

Agreed- giving birth without intervention is not an achievement.

I find it strange that women use phrases like 'I wanted a natural birth' or 'I wanted no intervention' etc. Of course you did - so does every women. If we could redesign the whole system of giving birth from scratch we would probably have a neat zip that just got opened up when the time was right. But that's not what happens and what you want doesn't really influence what happens. It may influence how what happens is dealt with but no amount of you wanting will stop a baby having a cord round their neck or getting stuck.

The one piece of advice I always give first time mothers (if asked, I never offer unwarranted opinions) is not to have a birth plan or get too hung up on an ideal birth.

It rarely happens that way and I like so many women who have felt terrible after due to the fact they didn't manage a natural delivery.

FWIW I've had "SVD" but the first was an augmented labour (I stalled at 7cm so needed the drip and my waters broken) and the 3rd was an induction (one pessary)

• googling it seems my induction should not be considered as SVD but it was written as such in my notes???