to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

Well, if my first birth had been more medicalised my daughter might have survived. After 3 days of stop start labour, going to Triage on day 1 and being sent away, I arrived at the hospital in labour and was told I was only 2cm and they wanted to send me away again. Listened to DD's heartbeat and didn't detect any problems (whether they were present or not, I'll never know). I refused to go and they let me wait in a room on my own, and said that I didn't need to be examined again for at least 4 hours. I waited 3 and sent DH to get a midwife because I was in pain and wanted to know how I was progressing. Somewhere in that 3 hours DD's heartbeat disappeared. I realise this is an extreme case, but the least they could do is keep even a cursory eye on women who have been in labour on and off for 3 days with nothing happening.

OMG YANBU!!!

The simple fact that we pretend it's a huge improvement to to create "midwive led birth centre" without any possibility of a decent pain relief. They were never designed to help the mothers, they are designed to save money!
Give women the choice by all means, but make it a real one.

but the last time I looked my body was made to grow a baby and give birth to one whereas my husband's isn't
Don't be silly, it's only when it means "your body is fine for a so-called natural birth, when the reality is that women and children naturally die in childbirth in very large number". THAT is what people react to.

Every woman should have the option to chose how they have their baby, be that vaginal delivery, natural, pumped full of drugs, c section you name it. It should not be ok for other women to put down and sneer at the choice another woman makes. But you’re just here to push an agenda, rather than actually discuss the real issues.

Nah, I'm not traumatised, nor do I need counselling because this happened a long time ago. I'm not that fragile, and nope, I don't think back to my birth experience very often. Just another life event.

I am, however, angry on behalf of all the mothers who'd been fed the bollocks, swallowed it whole, and feel ashamed or disappointed that they needed intervention. That's different from being 'traumatised'. I have nothing to be traumatised about - I gave birth, and came out of it in one piece, as did my child.

@Woollycardi
I'm haven't been pulled down by toxic ideology but the last time I looked my body was made to grow a baby and give birth to one whereas my husband's isn't. I'm not a feminist martyr, surely that's fact?
Your body hasn't been "made" or designed to do anything. Evolution doesn't work that way and there is a pretty high level of "natural wastage" associated with humans reproducing.

I think women deserve the truth and facts of all factors of childbirth.

I have to admit, I've never come across this intervention shaming. Maybe because I have only had vaginal births, but I didn't realise that women were made to feel inadequate for c sections and interventions! It's bloody shocking!

But then the thought of attending NCT classes alone and all the 'mummy' friends that go with it, to discuss all the birthing etc is unnatural to me too.
Rebranding required
UCT perhaps 🤔

A new study in I think Sweden suggests there are more baby deaths if induction is left until after 41 weeks, 3000 women. It was so marked they had to stop continuing the research for ethical reasons. Its sad but there will have to be less women left to go into labour naturally after 41 weeks

Bumpity - its wasnt a definitive statement. There are lots of ifs and buts.

C/S is a safe procedure but has potent implications for future family planning. And there is lots of research into the microbiome and how bacteria that is encountered in a vaginal birth can be beneficial in populating the good bacteria in a babies gut.

But while everyone is squabbling about natural birth v intervention and how midwives are evil pain relief with holding pain relief the REAL problem of a dysfunctional system from board to the coal face is not being talked about.

@slippyfeet I had exactly the same situations as you for both my births. Absolutely identical in every detail. And I completely agree with you.

You might need to be a bit careful about being so dismissive of those of us who want intervention free births

I imagine that most women want intervention free births, but are intelligent enough to realise that sometimes the safest option is to have intervention. I had a textbook labour with just TENS, but I was open to every option if I had needed it.

Who are the 12% who think YABU?

I was brushed off as a silly first time mother and refused pain relief despite begging for it telling midwife I'm sure baby is coming now. I was terrified and never been in so much pain. I grabbed the Midwife's hand begging her to help me. Midwife left the room abruptly saying fine she'll go get some pethidine. No checks nothing my water had broken 4 hours before at home. She came back and baby's head was showing so she said oh dear no pain relief for you it's too late.
Luckily made me super angry and it actually helped the pain but unacceptable and can't imagine any other case of extreme pain being treated in this manner when you go into hospital.

I haven’t clicked either way. I find the way the OP is talking about other women dismissive and deeply offensive. I agree with much of what she is saying but the argument it far too simplistic and leaps to false conclusions.

Now, before I bugger off to get my nails done - to all the mothers who have had, or will have, intervention, pain relief, planned or emergency c-sections:

You've done bloody great you great big bunch of absolute troopers.

Intervention in childbirth is a wonder of modern medicine. An absolutely amazing invention. If you don't want or need it, nobody should force you to have it, but if you DO want it or need it, treat it as the gift it is. There is zero need to be ashamed or disappointed. As long as you end up in one piece, cuddling your gorgeous newborn baby, consider your experience a huge success.

I didn't think Shrewsbury Maternity Unit scandle was anything to do with natural birth at any cost - I thought it was a dismive attitude, poor care and cover ups.

I had third pg under adjacent area and another family member was pg in another nearby area- and TBH and substand care -lying in notes which got found out with us -and a through patronising and dismissive service was rife.

It was a million miles from NHS care I had with first two children in the north.

I spoke to alot of mothers - whether it was HB or c-section there were the same issues - wasn't all staff but a significant minority and yes I know at least one preventable still birth because of it - they were going down legal route.

I personally haven't enountered a natural birth at all costs from HCP or mothers but if it's out there then yes it's mad.

In the past lots of women and babies died during childbirth, and it still happens in developing coutries, but not so often in developed countries like ours.
As an earlier poster said, there is some 'wastage' in human births, which logically would be acceptable on the basis that the human race is hardly going to die out soon, but obviously not for the people concerned.
My first birth was a breech delivery, which I think nowdays is almost always a c-section. On this occassion I was advised by the consultant (after an xray to make sure there was room) to have an epidural and 'assisted' vaginal delivery, on the basis that an emergency c-section could be given if required.
I remember driving home in tears after my consultation!
This did not stop a (male) relative for telling me I had the 'cheats' method, as though there was some kind of point scoring related to how natural a birth you had.

Shouting for "natural" birth at all cost is as stupid as raising children "naturally" , as in immunisation-free.

@burnagirl same goes to every woman who's given birth without any intervention or pain relief.

I agree with EvilEdna1

Where is your evidence that for low risk pregnant women midwife led care is less safe than consultant led care? The evidence goes the other way.

It's convenient and easy to blame advocates of physiological birth as it obscures the real scandal in maternity care which is too few midwives, not enough funding, and pouring money into processes like routine induction while not having the resources to support women adequately through the process.

The real misogyny is in not listening and responding to the needs and wants of women giving birth and a dismissive attitude and that applies to women who want a physiological birth or those wanting epidural or caesareans.

We also do need to rename c-sections.

An emergency c-section is just that, fine.
An "elective" one make it sound like it's a lazy choice...

same goes to every woman who's given birth without any intervention or pain relief.

It doesn't make them better or worst mothers though, just lucky - or in some cases VERY unlucky that they didn't even get a choice! It's barbaric.

OP - the tone of your follow up posts sounds like you think intervention is the way to go and any other way is wrong.

Maybe we should trust women to make their own decisions about their own bodies? I’ve yet to meet any woman who has gone into childbirth lightly, we all know it’s going to be hard yet all we can do is make the best decisions for ourselves.

I couldn’t give a fuck how Mary down the road gave birth - why would I? As long as Mary and her son are alive and well at the end??

ITS NOT OUR BUSINESS.

The biggest issue I ever had with pain relief in childbirth was getting decent pain relief after a c-section, so I really don't believe that attitudes there are all about midwives pushing natural-birth. Overstretched hospitals and chronically low staffing plus general disregard of c-sections as a serious operation more like.

I'd love to see the statistics on birth injuries and the impact on women's lives physically and emotionally in terms of incontinence, prolapses, affect on sex life, etc. But no one is bothered collecting that long term data.
Am I bitter because of an avoidable prolapse, yes I am. I could have afforded to pay for a C section but oh well let's give being a Real Woman a try.

Look at the advertising for Always incontinence products. A bunch of women 'celebrating' the fact they are pissing themselves. Really? My advice is - if you can afford it get a C Section. You've nothing to lose by that.