to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

Did you have a failed natural birth? Just wondering why you’re so cross about women who’re able to birth naturally?
Perhaps some soul searching or therapy to consider here your anger comes from and how to deal with rather than berate those who’ve taken a different path to you?

Oh, fuck off.

No one is criticising or berating women who gave birth naturally or without pain relief or whatever. No one.

But it appears (subject to the full investigation) that in Shrewsbury, staff were so intent on keeping their section rates low that they pursued natural births at any cost. Including dead babies. Brain damaged babies. Dead mothers. Grievously injured mothers. The ‘natural birth’ ideology was placed before safety.

Why is there pressure on hospitals to keep section rates low? The ‘natural birth’ ideology, which happens to fit in nicely with the NHS’ cost-cutting agenda.

It is this ideology that the OP is quite rightly criticising. It pervades maternity services in the UK and where it has been taken too far, hundreds of families’ lives have been left in tatters as a result.

But some self-absorbed fuckwits just HAVE to make it all about them and get all faux outraged and offended and accuse the OP of being bitter - presumably because they’ve bought into the ideological narrative that having a natural birth somehow makes them morally superior.

And before you accuse me of being bitter, I had a natural birth with no pain relief. 9lbs 2oz baby. I am woman, hear me roar, etc etc. (Sustained a 3DT - but that’s another story.) But I’m still absolutely fucking livid that the cult of natural childbirth has been taken to such extremes in some areas of the NHS that it has cost women and babies their LIVES.

No one is criticising or berating women who gave birth naturally or without pain relief or whatever. No one

“Batshit”
“Hippy drippy”
“Nut jobs”
“Woo”

The rest of your post makes a lot of sense, but let’s not pretend there hasn’t been actual criticism levelled at people for giving birth naturally or without pain relief.

No one is criticising or berating women who gave birth naturally or without pain relief or whatever. No one

Except for the posts that say nut job, anti science attention seeker, woo, batshit, nonsense.

I was treated nicely as an NHS patient in non maternity services.

Such a good point @Biggobyboo

I’ve often wondered why the “care” I received on the postnatal ward was so neglectful, cruel and borderline dangerous. I’d had surgery for third degree tear and couldn’t walk more than a tiny, pathetic shuffle. When the epidural wore off I was in so much pain I was shivering. And yet I was given two paracetamol by a midwife who didn’t even come to see me or assess my pain levels. I missed meals because I was expected to fetch it myself and carry it back on a tray. It was impossible.

That simply doesn’t happen on other wards. And I genuinely believe it’s because the safety and well-being of the woman becomes irrelevant as soon as she gives birth. No matter how ill she is after the birth, she’s expected to be utterly self-sufficient because you're a mother now, pull your socks up.

I did not find for the birth in hospital that the c section was to be avoided at all costs. I narrowly missed it by one push. But the midwives and people rushing in were as good at reacting as I’d hope them to be. Yes as it should be.

I completely agree. When I watch One Born it irritates me that the midwives delay or try and disuade the labouring women in agony from having any form of pain relief. When I gave birth, I was given cocodamol which I couldn't even swallow and eventually after 18 hours of labour, I was finally given an epidural but because it was done by a trainee anaesthetist it didn't work. Anyway, you're right, there is some kind of fetish with not giving women decent pain relief. My experience was so bad that I never had any more children.

I wanted an all natural childbirth in pool. Paid to do it privately. Ended up c section. Breech birth. A healthy baby and me also alive. Childbirth was a huge risk for women and babies in the past. These days, few die. Modern medicine is doing a good job.

I'm not sure it's good for all women though if some women have home births if they have TWO midwives with them. Surely that means there are fewer left in the hospital? And that's without the travelling time to get there. And really in practice we don't get much choice for other medical treatments as there has to be cost considerations. With the NHS on its knees, we can't afford to train loads of additional midwives before someone says this.

Anyway, I certainly don't think anyone who has any kind of intervention has failed. People who have natural births are just lucky not higher achievers. And I had one for my second just because it was fairly quick but needed an epidural for the first, so no chip on my shoulder.

It's awful how we can be so hard on ourselves. FGS you've made a human. That's amazing. The birth bit is such a tiny part of being a mother. Needing an op, drugs or epidural means nothing in the long term and makes perfect sense if it helps you avoid a risk to your baby or a traumatic experience.

Countries that have c section rates higher than 10% do not have a reduction in maternal or infant mortality. Have you read the Place of Birth study? Hospital is not the safest place to be for a second baby if everything else is uncomplicated.

Yes I'm sure someone will now say it was safest for them. I'm sure it was, that's why individualised maternity care is important. But that's not how statistics work--public health decisions are made on population level data.

There's a massive fucking problem in maternity care and that's the systematic abuse of women's rights and bodily autonomy. THAT was the problem at Shrewsbury, not people who have home births.

Incidentally I did have a home birth second time round. I am the least woo person you'll ever meet. I have 2 science degrees. I also actually got pain relief at home, and consent was requested for procedures. I had none in hospital with my first and my baby almost died due to crappy prenatal care, which was a world away from the community care I got with my second.

@Greenwingmemories a home birth is cheaper for the Trust even with 2 midwives (who aren't there the whole time). Not taking up a bed is a massive part of that. We have a midwifery crisis, but the logical conclusion of that is not to force women into hospital births when they are not needed. The solution is more midwives (also HB midwives are often attached to a birth centre not the main L&D ward).

With respect Green the staffing issue isn't down to women.

In my nieces case the midwives were from the community home birth team. They were not pulled out of the hospital but were on call. Having been a midwife I know that sometimes there are dedicated teams for different things. Community was my chosen area hence I delivered many babies at home, occasionally I'd be called to work in the hospital when they were short.

The rest of your post makes a lot of sense, but let’s not pretend there hasn’t been actual criticism levelled at people for giving birth naturally or without pain relief.

I have read those as levelled at people pushing the drug- and intervention-free model as the ‘best’ or ‘success’ or the only right way to do it, particularly if they are pushing one particular approach as the pinnacle of birth-giving. Not those of us who made an informed choice and were lucky enough (or in some cases received such substandard care) that we got that outcome.

I think it would be quite useful for all of us who had the so-called ‘good’ births (drug and intervention free) to actually listen and reflect on what other women are saying rather than assuming they’re attacking us personally.

(I am 100% Pro elective sections, whatever you want, all the pai relief, none whatever. Everyone should have the approach to their birth they want. This attempt to pitch women against each other is masking the actual problem which is a total disregard for women's decision making around birth).

I'm not sure it's good for all women though if some women have home births if they have TWO midwives with them. Surely that means there are fewer left in the hospital? And that's without the travelling time to get there.

Nope. Not buying. Slippery slope from ‘it’s easier/cheaper for us in the hospital’ to ‘well epidurals are pretty expensive and I don’t think you really need one’ to ‘no one needs more than a couple of paracetamol after a c section or major tear’.

And as we’ve seen there’s already quite enough of that in the system.

Think the “no drugs” crew are nut jobs!

Home birth is ‘look at me’

This is not aimed at natural birth at all cost people. It’s aimed at anyone who doesn’t do it the same medicalised way.

Sure this thread is like moths to the flame for those posts. Doesn’t mean we can’t say it’s inaccurate.

Countries that have c section rates higher than 10% do not have a reduction in maternal or infant mortality.

Though as the WHO also notes there is insufficient evidence on other infant and maternal outcomes to be definitive on the wider benefits or otherwise of c-sections above that rate.

‘Not dead’ is a pretty low place to set the bar.

That was to Jassy.

If people took a step back with these falsities it would be a better conversation.

Sorry yes, I remembered the home birth comment after I’d posted @MarshaBradyo. That was horrible and inaccurate and coming from a nasty place.

I read the no drugs one differently from you as the advocates of no drugs not the women choosing it, but I may have interpreted it wrongly.

TBH I think people have not necessarily been terribly sensitive on either side of the debate here.

If people took a step back with these falsities it would be a better conversation.

I don’t disagree. But I can understand the frustration some may feel given the determination to shut down their actual experiences and how they’ve been made to feel that has happened from the first page of the thread, as long as a lot of the scientific misinformation, plus just as much ‘I can’t believe anyone sane would choose surgery’ crap as the ‘why would anyone choose no drugs’ crowd.

I think any woman should be listened to and treated with humanity before, during and after labour. I think every woman should be treated and examined as an individual and given support in trying to achieve the kind of broth that they want. I don't think anyone should be pressured to have any kind of birth, but should ideally be advised, by a doctor, of all the options and risks in their own specific situation. I think that the system is short staffed and creaky BUT I also think that there is a midwife-based ideology that is strongly in favour of a natural birth agenda.

Here is my story:

I would have loved to have a natural birth. I did the hypnobirthing course, I ate the pineapple, drank the raspberry leaf tea, had the hippo sex, walked 5-7 miles a day and had the induction pessary and then turned up to hospital to be induced at 42 weeks with what turned out to be a 9 lb 9 back to back baby. And I was 50kg and 5 ft 6 before pregnancy, so I was bloody enormous. With a tiny pelvis.

No one examined me properly and treated me as an individual, by which I mean considered having a discussion about the odds of having an intervention free birth at this stage (zero - because even aside from the serious likelihood of intervention resulting from induction and the fact that baby was not even remotely engaged, I would require continuous monitoring, so my options for the hypnobirthing style birth in the birthing pool were ruled out). No one talked about options other than a natural delivery. No one gave any thought to trying to turn my baby to try to get her to descend.

I was naive about the process, thought it would be easier to recover from a natural delivery and trusted the medical professionals. Instead, what happened was a three day induction. Without any sleep. On day three, I got to five cm, so they broke my waters, put me on the drip and all hell broke loose. The vomiting was so uncontrollable I was vomiting blood into the sink and shaking. In addition to the monitoring and the syntocin drip I now had an IV line to keep my blood sugar up, but I think it was still set too low for my natural metabolic rate (which is quite high), as I continued to have the shakes throughout the rest of the night. I was nil by mouth in case of surgery. I asked for pain relief so that I could try to rest for a bit, which I got. I was babysat overnight by a duty agency midwife who was just paid to sit in a room with me and monitor mine and baby's vital signs from time to time who was rude to my husband. After 10 more hours, I was told I was at 10cm and it was time to push. I felt no downward pressure and I told the midwives this, but they rubbished my concerns on the basis that I had had an epidural (which I had let wear off to a large degree by not clicking the top up button to be ready to push over six hours ago). I tried pushing, for 90 minutes, with nothing happening. The midwives kept telling me I just had not pushed hard enough. I stopped the process and asked to speak to a doctor because I just didn't feel that it was right. Reluctantly, they got a junior doctor who, without examining me, read me all the risks of a c section and said she would prefer to use forceps on me. I refused to sign the consent form and said that I would accept the view of the consultant, but I was a lawyer and wanted to understand the risks of BOTH better.

I got to the operating room, was examined, consultant said there was no point ever trying to get the baby out vaginally, she was just too high and in the wrong position. Midwives looked a bit sheepish. I had a c section. I had a huge haemorrhage on the table due to having been in labour so long beforehand. C section recovery was fine. I had to heal a small bladder and uterine prolapse from the unjustified and prolonged pushing (the consultant Urogynecologist I saw said it was directly caused by the pushing and said that he has tried to write an article in the BMJ about inductions, interventions and damage to the female pelvic floor in favour of doing better pre birth evaluations and advising those at greater risk of having a bad birth that they can have a c section on the basis that in those situations it will likely be better for the woman and baby and cheaper for the system, but it has been rejected on the basis that it is viewed as "anti woman" in the current climate) - luckily, I was able to do so. Psychologically, I was a wreck, after having been told that I just hadn't tried hard enough - I knew this wasn't true, but I looked back on it for several months wondering whether there was something I should have done.

I am sensitive to it but comments like that are diverting.

We’d do better to not just heap a load of bad will on people who choose no pain relief and concentrate on what’s really going on. I find the posters who know about the NHS and all the stats stuff good to read. It has been a good conversation apart from negative stuff mentioned.

I agree.

My first baby was huge and I had a cervical lip I think they referred to it as, they were debating giving me a C section, I was told to try my hardest to push and if I couldn't I would be c sectioned.

Well, I pushed with all my might and delivered a baby but sustained a third degree tear, a haemorrhage and prolapse of my bladder, bowel and uterus (the prolapse didn't become apparent until a few years later)

I always wonder if the three issues above were a direct result of not giving me the section...

I read the no drugs one differently from you as the advocates of no drugs not the women choosing it, but I may have interpreted it wrongly.

So did I but I accept I'm probably biased as the midwives with dc1 were determined I wasn't getting any and they're the ones I have an issue with. One way or another, had dc1 not been stuck, he'd have been delivered without pain relief since I only got any when it came more obvious that I was correct and he was stuck. Given that I chose not to take pain killers post c-section x 2, I can hardly comment on anyone else (yes, I've been called nuts).

I agree 100% OP.

Both my friend and myself feel that we failed at childbirth.

I had an emergency c section, and she was induced. Both babies are perfect yet we felt like failures.

Took us ages to realise that a healthy baby and mum is a success!

Totally agree! I went for an elective section second time round after I was pulled apart by forceps during my first birth and it was the best decision I've ever made