To ask about Jeremy Corbyn and anti semitism

[TheoriginalLEM]

So having decided to vote labour I had a conversation with a Jewish work colleague who said she couldn't vote for him, hated him even. It took me a few seconds and then i realised why. I said that I had stuck my fingers in my ears and my head in the sand somewhat about this, hoping it was just the media etc.

We didn't get into it as I could see she was uncomfortable.

So can someone tell me if and why he is an anti-semite? It doesn't sit well with me to vote for someone like that but I desperately want the Tories gone and my politics is definitely to the left.

I'm honestly not being goady and I know I could google but i wouldn't know where to start to get an unbiased view

@SeaOfDespair - I think you've missed the point here. The issue ia not criticism of Israeli policy, it's people making vile comments about anyone solely on the basis that they're Jewish.

Here's an article about a Labour councillor; actually read what she's been saying. www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/hannahalothman/another-labour-councillor-has-been-suspended-over-alleged?utm_term=.leAlqKma3&__twitter_impression=true

@WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles brilliant summary on page 7, thanks for that.

I’m outside the U.K. & haven’t been able to find a link to the Panorama program that works for me. If anyone has a link that I can view from North America, I’d really appreciate it.

The 10.41 post by @YetAnotherSpartacus (and thank you to Bananafish) is actually a much better, and detailed, illustration of these issues than my post, I note people minimising and denying anti semitism haven't, or aren't able to respond properly to that.

Maybe they're off lecturing women about how reports of sexism are greatly exaggerated and just used as a weapon against men, some of their friends are women and haven't seen it, maybe women just don't understand what sexism is and they're just running a smear campaign....

So today a Labour party canvasser knocked on my door. Asked me if I had decided and I told her I don't think I can vote labour anymore. She tried to wave it off as JC being self indulgent and a little too left wing. But the party are reigning him in. Did everything she could to shift onto policy and put over some convincing arguments- mainly that in my area it is absolutely a two horse race, we have a Labour mp just now after er years of conservative waste of space roger gale.

Before the antisemitism row it was a no brainer. Johnson and his cronies clearly consider anyone outside of the privaliged classes to be lesser, but reading around things today that the Jewish community is scared of a Cornyn lead government I am left with hobson' s choice and I honestly don't know what to do.

I want the Tories out. But my conscience??

I don't know what to do

Ffs op turn the waterworks off and just vote or don't vote - you can make up your own mind, do your own research can't you?

Or is all this just fake soul-searching as an excuse to beat up Corbyn with the antisemitism trope yet again?

I want the Tories out. But my conscience??

Ian Dunt wrote a good piece about this dilemma:
www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/11/08/week-in-review-the-moral-horror-of-the-labour-anti-semitism

He suggests examining your Labour candidate carefully. Will they fight the good fight and try to restore Labour, or do they blindly support Corbyn, minimise the antisemitism issue and are they part of the problem?

I guess the way the polls are looking, at least there doesn’t seem to be any chance of a Labour majority, but there is a good chance of a Tory one.

but there is a good chance of a Tory one.

By which I mean if you don’t want the Tories in you can frame your vote as a vote against rather than a vote for.

Rationalising a vote for antisemites is never a good idea. Historically, it tends not to end well.

As the IHRA definintion lays out, Anti-Semitism includes holding Israel to a different standard to that of other nations. The Stop The War Mob excused and defended Assad whilst condemning Israel. Corbyn's 'Friends' in Hamas kill more Palestinians on a daily basis than Israel does.

We have even had it on these boards, with people defending remarks that speak of 'the people who bombed the King David Hotel' who can be expected to do more of same. Now the criminals responsible for that terrorist act are all dead, but of course that isn't what it means.

"Ffs op turn the waterworks off and just vote or don't vote - you can make up your own mind, do your own research can't you?

Or is all this just fake soul-searching as an excuse to beat up Corbyn with the antisemitism trope yet again?"

Again, peoples' replies to this thread are very telling. If you think that someone asking questions is A Bad Thing - well, if you have something to hide, it usually is.

or is all this just fake soul searching

Yes I’m wondering if this was a goady thread too.

I'm honestly not being goady and I know I could google but i wouldn't know where to start to get an unbiased view

As this thread demonstrates, definitely not Mumsnet! And what is meant by an unbiased view anyway? People will have one view, strongly held, others will have the opposite, equally strongly held.

it's up to us as thinking individuals to find out and learn and decide, not poke the same old stick in the same old nest for the umpteenth time and decide which hornet you prefer.

I would like to ask everyone here who seems to think that there is not an issue with anti semitism, to the extent that they even believe someone just asking about it must be being goady and trying to beat up Corbyn

Do you believe that Jews are lying or exaggerating about anti semitism?

I'd really like a simply yes or no answer to that question, it isn't a question that needs qualifying.

It isn't an answer that needs qualifying I mean.

PS LEM has been here for years I believe

PS LEM has been here for years I believe

Then they presumably know the effect of posting a highly emotive subject in AIBU?

And ensuring that 'Jeremy Corbyn' and 'antisemitism' are once again put together so that someone googling to 'get an unbiased view' about this issue will probably turn up this inflammatory thread. Job done.

From a fbk friend:
Just found this list on (of all places!) the The Board of Deputies of British Jews facebook page.. Hope it's useful.

Corbyn organised the Apr. 1977 defence of Jewish populated Wood Green from a Neo-Nazi march
EDM3933 7 Nov. 1990: Corbyn signs motion condemning the rise of antisemitism
EDM634, 11 Apr. 2000: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion condemning David Irving for being a Holocaust Denier
EDM1124, 6 Nov. 2000: Jeremy Corbyn praised the ‘British Schindler’, Bill Barazetti, for his WW2 kindertransport
EDM742, 28 Jan. 2002: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion praising football clubs for commemorating Holocaust Day
EDM1233 30 Apr. 2002: Corbyn was a primary sponsor on a motion condemning antisemitism
11 May 2002: Jeremy led a clean up of Finsbury Park Synagogue after an anti-Semitic attack
EDM1691, 23 July 2002: Corbyn condemned attacks on a synagogue in Swansea
EDM123 26 Nov. 2003: Corbyn officially condemns attacks on 2 Istanbul synagogues
EDM298, 16 Dec. 2003: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
2004: Jeremy condemned news that anti-Semitic hate crimes had risen for yet another year
EDM461, 21 Jan. 2004: Jeremy Corbyn condemned the French government’s moves to ban the Jewish Kippa in French Schools
EDM717, 26 Feb. 2004: Jeremy signed a motion praising Simon Wiesenthal for bringing Nazi perpetrators of the Holocaust to justice
EDM1613, 8 Sept. 2004: Corbyn co-sponsored a bill expressing fears for the future of the United Synagogue Pension Scheme
EDM1699, 11 Oct. 2004: Jeremy Corbyn condemned arbitrary attacks on civilians in Israel and Palestine
EDM482, 12 Jan. 2005: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
EDM343, 16 June 2005: Jeremy condemned the desecration of a Jewish cemetery in east London
EDM1343, 11 Jan. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
EDM1774, 8 Mar. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn led condemnations of an Iranian Magazine soliciting cartoons about the Holocaust
EDM1267, 16 Apr. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn condemned Bryan Ferry for anti-Semitic remarks
EDM2414, 26 June 2006: Jeremy Corbyn praised British war veterans for their efforts to combat the Holocaust
EDM2705, 10 Oct. 2006: Jeremy signed a motion marking the 70th anniversary of Cable Street
EDM271, 14 Nov. 2007: Jeremy co-sponsored a motion lamenting the poverty and social exclusion East London Jews suffered
EDM153, 12 May 2008: Corbyn praised the efforts of the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto during the uprising of 1944
EDM2350, 27 Oct 2008: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion marking the 70th anniversary of the horrors of the holocaust
EDM173, 8 Dec. 2008: Jeremy condemned the Press Complaints Commission for refusing to sanction The Times for antisemitism
EDM461, 14 Jan. 2009: Jeremy Corbyn condemned a wave of recent anti-Semitic incidents targeted
EDM605, 27 Jan. 2009: Corbyn signed John Mann’s motion condemning antisemitism on university campuses
EDM917 26 Feb. 2009: Jeremy signs a motion condemning antisemitism on the internet
EDM1175 24 Mar. 2009: Corbyn signs a motion praising the heroism of British Jews during Holocaust
EDM337, 2 Dec. 2009: Jeremy Condemned Iran’s treatment of Jewish minorities in Iran
EDM850 9 Feb. 2010: Jeremy joins in calls for Facebook to do more to fight antisemitism
EDM891: 22 Feb 2010: Corbyn co-sponsors a motion calling for Yemen’s Jews to be given refugee status to the UK
EDM908 27 Oct. 2010: Corbyn praises work of late Israeli PM in his pursuit of a 2 state solution
EDM1360, 27 Jan. 2011: Corbyn co-sponsored a motion praising the ‘never again for anyone initiative’
EDM1527, 3 Mar. 2011: Corbyn backed Ian Paisley’s motion condemning the anti-Semitic remarks of Dior’s lead fashion designer
EDM2870, 14 Mar. 2012: Jeremy Corbyn condemned the sale of Nazi memorabilia at an auction in Bristol
EDM2866, 14 Mar 2012: Jeremy Corbyn co-sponsored a bill condemning the rise of antisemitism in Lithuania
EDM2899, 20 Mar. 2012, Jeremy Corbyn condemned a terrorist attack on a Jewish school in Toulouse
EDM168, 12 June 2012, Jeremy co-sponsored a motion condemning anti-Semitic attacks during EURO 2012 in Poland
EDM 195 13 June 2012: Jeremy attacks BBC for cutting Jewish programmes from Its schedule
EDM 1133 1 Mar 2013: Corbyn joins a chorus of calls condemning antisemitism In sport
1 Oct. 2013: Corbyn was one of the few MPs who defended Ralph Miliband from Daily Mail antisemitism
EDM 932 9 Jan 2014: Jeremy praises Holocaust Memorial’s work on antisemitism education
EDM 165 22 June 2015: Jeremy condemns a Neo-Nazi rally planned for a Jewish area of London
Sat 4 July 2015: Jeremy co-planned a counter-fascist demo in defence of Jewish residents at Golders Green. The march was re-routed
18 Nov. 2015, Corbyn used one of his first PMQs to challenge Cameron to do more on antisemitism
9 Oct 2016: Corbyn, close to tears, leads commemoration of the Battle of Cable Street
3 Dec. 2016: Corbyn visits Terezin Concentration Camp to commemorate Holocaust victims
In 2017-19 Jeremy introduced 20 new measures to combat antisemitism in the Labour Party

Arse Do you believe that Jews are lying or exaggerating about anti semitism?

Yes LEM has been here years and I can't recall her ever being goady.

The amount of posters popping up now to say it's all smears and lies but I'm still waiting for even one of them to address which specific examples of Corbyn's behaviour raised on this thread aren't true. Easier to start attacking someone just for asking a question though I guess.

Well if someone does a search and comes up with the bread they can read it and would assume they would also read other links and make up their own minds

Obviously the voices of Jewish MP’s and party member and their experiences is not enough

As we know middle class socialist grass roots members of Momentum know better

This thread ...
Not bread

Who said there isn’t an issue with anti semitism? I’ve said several times in different threads that it exists in society and in all political parties- just like other forms of racism.
There has however been a lot of these anti Corbyn/ Labour Party threads recently (OP doesn’t seem to have noticed them, it would have saved her starting this one), concentrating on trying to prove Corbyn is anti semetic.
Yes I know a General election is coming, but we don’t see threads about the Islamaphobia and bigotry in the Tory party. Not as fashionable a topic perhaps? How about debating the manifestos instead of every thread mentioning the Labour Party having to be about anti semetic / not anti semitic.

Just so you know, I am Jewish. I do not believe that Corbyn is antisemitic in any way. I will be voting Labour.

I'd really like a simply yes or no answer to that question, it isn't a question that needs qualifying.

It needs explaining properly. No point trying to be all Paxman when you haven't put an answerable question.

If anyone comes up with the bread I want my share, maan

"The List" of 40 things Corbyn has done to stand with Jews has been posted on Facebook literally thousands of times. It is no more than a long statement of the "some of my best friends are ... " cliche that we would normally mock. What matters is actions and leadership, not signing early day motions.

I've thought about this dilemma (the Ian Dunt article is good) and until recently I was completely in the "stay and fight" and "vote for your good Labour MP" camps. I will say that words and intentions are not enough any more. There is one test only and that is where you put your cross on the ballot paper. If you vote for a narrow populism of either colour while ignoring the concerns of a minority, you are enabling that, and this will have consequences. Remember your vote is the only real political weapon you have.