To ask about Jeremy Corbyn and anti semitism

[TheoriginalLEM]

So having decided to vote labour I had a conversation with a Jewish work colleague who said she couldn't vote for him, hated him even. It took me a few seconds and then i realised why. I said that I had stuck my fingers in my ears and my head in the sand somewhat about this, hoping it was just the media etc.

We didn't get into it as I could see she was uncomfortable.

So can someone tell me if and why he is an anti-semite? It doesn't sit well with me to vote for someone like that but I desperately want the Tories gone and my politics is definitely to the left.

I'm honestly not being goady and I know I could google but i wouldn't know where to start to get an unbiased view

This whole issue is so complicated, isn't it. I don't really know what to think.

It does seem that antisemitism has some unique and worrying features. It seems people feel justified in it more because of the potential material wealth correlations (and they are only statistical correlations) of Judaism. In my understanding, members of the majority of groups who are traditionally discriminated against are, on average, less well off than the general population (e.g., black people in the UK). I think statistically speaking (and correct me if I'm wrong) the opposite is true of Jewish people in the UK and USA - income per capita is significantly greater, on average. Perhaps this makes some people less willing to see, and more tolerant of, anti-Jewish sentiment than of, say, anti-Black sentiment, when really anti-ANY GROUP sentiment is clearly wrong and harmful.

How this relates to JC I'm not really sure, but certainly he's made some unfortunate associations and needs to explain himself better if he's not antisemitic.

Israelis think Corbyn is an anti semite and won't give him the time of day. He won't move the needle even slightly.

Indeed, Corbyn undermines the Israeli left since he gives credence to the right-wing argument that even legitimate criticism is motivated by anti-semitism by his antisemitic. I speak from personal experience and engagement. I know exactly how damaging Corbyn is to genuine peace efforts.

Yes, Jews have tended to do well in any country which has allowed them to flourish.
They were doing very well materially in Germany before the rise of the Nazis. It didn't help them much.
The East African Indians who moved to the UK in the 1960s have also been very successful. Materially they have done very well. But they still experienced and continue to experience racism.

Well I did try and save my blood pressure but overnight this seems to have escalated somewhat, sadly but unfortunately unsurprising. I haven't seen the deleted posts but can deduce their content.

I'd really like to ask a favour here as I think it would mean a lot to lots of us, plus as general interest - any lurkers/people reading this thread but who haven't posted, what your thoughts are?

Obviously I have skin in the game, so to speak, and have posted already so my views are clear, but I genuinely believe if I was reading this as an "outsider" I would be pretty horrified by the clear anti Semitic attitudes, plus the fact that people feel comfortable to show them, and pretty shocked at the extent if I hadn't been aware of it already. LEM what do you think, btw?

I realise it can be an emotive subject and people might be nervous about posting, especially if they want to ask questions, but I for one would be happy to answer any (though I'm definitely not as knowledgable as others here! (I'm thinking more from the perspective of the original question of anti semitism towards Jews in the U.K. and discussion as this is what the thread was meant to be about before it became a bit derailed, plus it's posters on this thread that have been the recipient of these comments).

I would really appreciate and be grateful if anyone had any comments on what they have read, and if it has changed any attitudes?

I've followed this whole palaver via the Jewish Chronicle online for months.

This thread has convinced me that it's been right on the money.

Smears by the mainstream media? Bullshit. It's all spewing out on this thread, directly from people who claim to be Labour supporters. Their one-eyed view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, their ignorance of or connivance with anti-Semitic tropes...

It's bloody shocking.

"Outsider" looks wrong, I mean people who have been "neutral" or unaffected by this issue previously, or even unaware. People who are new to the thread or haven't yet made any comments.

For clarity. I didn't mean outsider as none Jewish - for full disclosure I have Jewish heritage (all my family members on one side including children, save one, were murdered in concentration camps) but am myself a committed atheist these days.

A handy little guide for the confused corbynites on this thread:
www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitism-labour-israel-netanyahu-palestine-david-schneider-a8905941.html

@Halleli
Thank you for the concise history of Israel it was really helpful to my understanding of the situation.

Please can you tell me why Palestinians have there water and electricity supplies rationed, assuming this is true?

*their

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles

Obviously I have skin in the game, so to speak, and have posted already so my views are clear, but I genuinely believe if I was reading this as an "outsider" I would be pretty horrified by the clear anti Semitic attitudes, plus the fact that people feel comfortable to show them, and pretty shocked at the extent if I hadn't been aware of it already. LEM what do you think, btw?

That about covers it. I can't believe some of the shite that I have been reading. If this is what some of my ordinary fellow voters believe is okay to post, I'm scared for the future. I expect this shite from certain other parties, not labour. Sometimes, you just have to hold your hands up, and say that someone should be kicked from the party for using ethnic slurs, not contort yourself into a möebius strip to defend it.

The only fragment of hope I've got here is that these are twisted people trolling, rather than posting their sincere thoughts.

Do you means Gazans? I think they're the ones who are suffering fuel and water shortages.

The power supply to the WB has come from Israel and Jordan but is being shifted fully to the Palestinian Authority
www.reuters.com/article/us-israeli-palestinians-electricity/israel-to-shift-west-bank-power-supply-to-palestinian-authority-in-775-million-deal-idUSKBN1I23QP

Gaza is more complicated. It relies on Israel and Egypt almost entirely for power. And that power is needed to also run the desalination plants for water.
The problem is that it is so impoverished that it can't pay for the power and the water (which is expensive due to the need for desalnation). It's not rationed (by Israel) but there are blackouts and shortages.

As to WHY Gaza is so impoverished is a whole different story and tragic no matter what side of the political spectrum you may be.

ArseDarkly
This is why we need a PM who cares about the issue of Israel/Palestine

Why do you assume others don't care about Israel/Palestine?

A two state solution and recognition of a Palestinian state was Labour Party policy before Corbyn was leader.

Corbyn has done nothing to promote the cause of peace, any more than he did in Northern Ireland (despite what some of his supporters claim). In both instances all he has done is pick a side.

@Frenchw1fe

I'll just briefly explain Gaza, which is the Palestinian territory that suffers from water and electricity problems.

Gaza used to be occupied by Israel like the West Bank - IDF soldiers were stationed there, there were Jewish settlers etc.

In 2005, Israel decided to withdraw from Gaza - it demolished the houses of Jewish settlers and forced them to leave, and all Israeli soldiers left the Gaza Strip.

Elections were held in January 2006 - Hamas won. A violent conflict soon broke out between Hamas and the more moderate Fatah party (which controls the West Bank). Hamas won this conflict and most Fatah members fled to Egypt or the West Bank. Hamas has never held any more elections, so it is an authoritarian regime.

Ever since Hamas consolidated its control of the Gaza Strip, it has poured a huge proportion of its resources into developing rockets to fire against Israel (there are also a few other factions that fire rockets into Israel, most notably Palestinian Islamic Jihad - PIJ)

As a result, Israel has imposed a blockade on Gaza - it effectively refuses to allow into Gaza anything that could conceivably be used to build rockets.

This has undeniably created huge suffering for the ordinary Palestinian people - it means a lot of building materials can't get through, making it hard to rebuild homes. It also means that supply parts for Gaza's water salination plant are often blocked from getting through.

It's important to remember though that Egypt also has a border with Gaza - if Egypt was willing to allow resources through, then the Israeli blockade would have no effect.

Regarding electricity, it's even more complicated, and it's to do with the Fatah-Hamas conflict that I mentioned above. Even though Gaza is ruled by Hamas, they are dependent on the Fatah-ruled Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank to provide electricity funding. Since 2017, relations between Hamas and Fatah have broken down completely, and the PA has stopped providing the payments needed by Gaza for electricity.

This is only a very limited summary - there are lots of other factors at play.

*desalination, sorry

I would also like to know which of the 11 IHRA examples of antisemitism Jeremy Corbyn has actually breached please?

Why do you assume others don't care about Israel/Palestine?

I don't. Why do you instantly assume that's what I meant?

I personally don't believe that the EHRC launch official, comprehensive investigations into political parties over so-called media smear campaigns. There must have been enough evidence there in order for them to declare an investigation. They don't just read Twitter.

I'm not voting Labour this time, no. Peace loving, tolerant Labour left? The only people I've ever been spat at and sworn at in real life was from a momentum member (who uses to be a friend) for me saying I wasn't keen on Javan's I normally vote Lib Dem anyway. Nice.

Javan's? = Jeremy Corbyn

@Frenchw1fe

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_State_of_Palestine

@HannahBananaMama I haven’t read anything antisemitic here

Because all the posts were reported and deleted

Yeah, exactly.
Like the one innocently pointing out all the Jewish influence at the BBC.
Or the other comparing the situation in Palestine to the Holocaust.

All deleted - which is a shame.

My constituency is a swing seat. Conservative hold by 1,000 majority on Labour.

You know why Labour won't win the seat? Anti-semitism, pure and simple. There's a significant Jewish population and they will not now vote for Labour - they're polling at 6%!

I have voted Labour in the past. Won't vote for them now with Corbyn in control. Lost my vote.