To be pissed off with 'the man should pay' types?

[wimbmumma]

I just find it so outdated! The only time I've ever let the man pay was, coincidentally, on my first date with my ex husband. Doesn't even cross most of me and my friends' minds that you should split it (if it is a dinner date that is) but A LOT of the schoolmums feel very differently, as they made abundantly clear at a coffee morning... so AIBU to find them a bit annoying and utterly stuck in the 19th century

Those of you expecting the man to pay on dates because it's chivalrous, do you also expect him to keep his sword arm free when he walks next to you or to be ready to throw his cape down over a puddle so you don't get your feet wet? Does he have to get your father's permission to take you out too, because, you know, chivalry? Or do you just keep chivalry when it means you get free stuff?

I'm giving up on this thread.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras, yes kiddo. Herein is our problem isn't it

Some quality mental acrobats on this thread.

How unutterably sad and bitter are the posts of @littlehappyhippo and her world view.

It seems that paying for dates has become a proxy for everything that is wrong with men...

Yes all we want is free stuff. That’s all it’s about for us silly women Free stuff. What more is there to life?

When DH and I were dating, he would make an effort and paying was just a part of that. He used to drive across London, for instance to pick me up. When I was on an evening stint as a dancer (not stripper before someone asks ), he used to wait for me in the alley afterwards as it was dark, just to walk me home. But of course, it was all about FREE FOOD. That must have been it, yes

I think it’s a shame that some women can only comprehend such things in terms of money and they can’t get past that. But I guess if you don’t get it, you just don’t get it.

This thread had got me thinking - and actually I would say that the least misogynistic men I know are the ones who are more likely to pull your chair at dinner or get the door for you. It doesn’t follow that knowing how to be a gentleman means that you’ll expect your future wife to do all the housework or that you fully support the gender pay gap. Behaviour on early dates has no bearing on this actually. You could have someone who insists on splitting all the way and turns out to be a sexist nightmare, just as easily as the other way round. I’d say it’s more likely actually.

If it's not about free stuff then what is it about? Good manners should be exhibited by both parties. So what is it that is.particularly signified by a man picking up the bill?

Whatever it signifies, why don't you think.its equally.important for women to display the same traits too?

@matcatwomanheresheis there are always exceptions to the norm. I don't think this thread is about those exceptions

It doesn’t follow that knowing how to be a gentleman means that you’ll expect your future wife to do all the housework or that you fully support the gender pay gap.

You've listed what you consider to be gentlemanly behaviour so what's ladylike behaviour according to you?

I wouldn't expect a man to pay on a first date. That doesn't tell me anything about him.

I would, however, expect a man to value us as equals, not be misogynistic, hold the door because it's manners that go in both directions, does his fair share of organising things, believes in equal shares of chores, gets on with things as they need doing rather than hoping I'll tell him what needs doing from the chore list, values my career and aspirations, gets annoyed at patronising man child talk about men who "help" around the house or "babysit" their children (rather than be a functioning adult and be a parent).

I think sometimes people set their bars too high in some respects and too low in others.
For example one of my friends expects to be wined and dined and treated like a princess etc, but seems surprised that this goes hand in hand with outdtaed gender beliefs.

See @Hearhoovesthinkzebras has it. Could opposing posters please answer zebras logically?

If its not about you and your man, why do you care enough to be pissed off? DP paid on our 1st date, 6 years later he still pays for most of our socialising, holidays etc & majority of bills.

It suits us, doesn't have to suit anyone else & it's nobody else's business. Just do what suits you in your dating and relationship life.

God help the daughters of some of these posters.

Just do what suits you in your dating and relationship life.

So I presume the issue of equality of the sexes isn't, and never will be an issue for you? If it's not then ok.

If its not about you and your man, why do you care enough to be pissed off?

Because it affects all of us - it affects how men view women (as less capable, someone that needs looking after), it affects how women view men.

I appreciate good manners, I appreciate consideration for other people, I appreciate making effort when in company, being punctual, being generous. None of those things are dependent on being a man or a woman.

“See @Hearhoovesthinkzebras has it. Could opposing posters please answer zebras logically”

Well some people seem to talk of being “ladylike” as if it’s something beyond horrific. But why? To my mind, if you’re a woman who is naturally quite feminine In your manner, why should that be a bad thing? As long as you have the confidence to be who you are, then people will hopefully respect you for who you are. Why should being feminine / ladylike be seen as weak or “lesser” anyway? That’s the real misogyny actually, I just never felt like that ever. If other people want to think that, that’s their problem, not mine. It’s never stopped me doing anything, not does it have any bearing in my intelligence or anything else.

I'd still love to know how women are expected to behave, if men are meant to be chivalrous, pay on dates, pull chairs out, open doors..how are women meant to behave?

We are meant to be grateful and fawning.

if you’re a woman who is naturally quite feminine In your manner,

But what do you.mean by being "feminine"?

I think paying on a first date goes back to a man showing that he can provide for his mate and their offspring, which goes back probably to our very evolutionary beginnings. So the primeval instinct for this on both sides is probably quite hard to shake.

I have daughters who I hope will have a good education which in turn will lead them to always be able to provide for themselves.

But my advice would always be to choose a partner who can provide for his family, not necessarily be the higher earner but hard working and earning a decent wage, as chances are my daughter's life will be harder if their partner does not have these qualities. Sorry, but the odds are that this is the case.

You could have someone who insists on splitting all the way and turns out to be a sexist nightmare, just as easily as the other way round. I’d say it’s more likely actually

Totally. You should have heard Mr Bill Spilitting Take some Imodium so you dont use so much bog roll Mans opinion on women drivers.

Went to his brothers 40th. All the women were in the kitchen preparing food. I was handed an apron as soon as i walked in the door.

All the blokes......in the garden drinking.

This exes elderly father complained that none of his three daughters would do his washing. Never made the dsame comments about any of his five sons, Who also used to insist on equality when it came to things like bill splitting. You overhear a lot at a party. And at that 40th birthday party it was glaringly obvious that was the only bit of equality they were willing to get on board with.

So do you not think that girls should be proving that they will be good and equal.partners too then?

Do you not think that the 1st date is a little premature to be signalling what type of spouse or parent you are likely to be, and in the over all scheme.of things, the ability to pay for 1 meal.isnt really a good indicator.of very much at all?

Hearhooves - “feminine” can mean many things, of course, but I think what you and some others are trying to get at on hear is the type that you would see as “weak” and opposing your feminist view of the way you think women should be. I just don’t think “feminism” needs to mean being the “same” as men. I don’t need to feel threatened by men, nor do I need to compete on their terms. I always thought I’d rather stick to my own terms and find someone to complement that.

The man should pay.

But I am not that fussed about equality, all things considered. I'm happy to be paid for and have doors opened for me by a man who walks on the road side of the pavement. I'm happy to be 'ladylike'. In return, I'll humour him and ultimately iron his shirts.

That division of things tends to lead to good shagging, too.

It's probably also true, though, that if I went on a first date with a man who, it turned out, couldn't or wouldn't pay for it, I certainly wouldn't be going on a second.

matcatwomanheresheis

I'm not saying that being feminine (whatever that might mean) is weak but from what you and Thripp are saying you clearly seen to have very gender specific roles for what you think men and women are meant to be like and that ultimately can only be harmful.