To be pissed off with 'the man should pay' types?

[wimbmumma]

I just find it so outdated! The only time I've ever let the man pay was, coincidentally, on my first date with my ex husband. Doesn't even cross most of me and my friends' minds that you should split it (if it is a dinner date that is) but A LOT of the schoolmums feel very differently, as they made abundantly clear at a coffee morning... so AIBU to find them a bit annoying and utterly stuck in the 19th century

Why is it “harmful” though Hear, if that’s what comes most naturally to some people? It’s only harmful if there’s no respect. Some people gravitate to more gendered relationships and that’s ok. Some prefer more gender neutral relationships. Some people are gay. There’s all sorts and its all fine. As I say, mutual respect is what matters ultimately.

I have mixed feelings re this. I don’t necessarily think it’s men's responsibility but a lot of women are part time workers on low income so if one date partner or higher earning friend wants to keep sharing expensive events then I think they should either pay or pay a higher proportion.

matcatwomanheresheis

It's harmful because it perpetuates fixed gender roles. These are 1st dates that we're talking about, not long term relationships so the chances are both people will be going on to have dates with other people too.

If you expect men to fulfill the traditional "male" role then what is it that you expect women to fulfill?

fixed gender roles?

Like the one where women are waiting around for some guy to propose to them
Or the ones where women put their careers on hold to birth and care for children and go back making less money
Or the one where the women is doing the majority of the cooking, cleaning, child care, wife work.
or maybe the one where women's clothing, haircuts, drycleaning, birth control, beauty treatments cost more than a man's.

Where is all the male outrage about those issues??

crickets

Having women pay for dates hasn't done anything to fix those issues

going dutch may be fine for teens

graziadaily.co.uk/life/in-the-news/the-drama-over-aoc-spending-200-on-her-hair-shows-men-have-no-idea-how-expensive-it-is-to-be-a-woman/

It's harmful because it perpetuates fixed gender roles.

The default convention of a man paying may perpetuate gender roles, but it in no way fixes them. This thread neatly demonstrates that many women have opted out of this arrangement and are presumably dating likeminded men.

It seems like 'progressives' have very little tolerance for those who aren't signed up to every aspect of their programme, even if it's a private matter between two people who prefer to carry on in the 'wrong' way.

I don't have daughters, if I did I would certainly tell them that they should pay for their half of a bill when it came and I'd let them draw their own conclusions about the outcome.

We've always told our boys to pay for the first date but to keep their eyes open about what happens afterwards.

I wanted a fixed gender role in my relationship - I wanted to stay at home if financial feasible, to do all the childcare and housework and cooking. I also wanted DH to pay for dates. Happily, he also enjoys the same traditional values and therefore our marriage works well.

Why is it anyone’s business what other people do and why?

The main thing, I think, is never to go on a date EXPECTING someone to pay. If they want to then ok, but certainly take your own money and be prepared to spend it. And letting someone pay when you’re not interested is mean too.

The default convention of a man paying may perpetuate gender roles, but it in no way fixes them. This thread neatly demonstrates that many women have opted out of this arrangement and are presumably dating likeminded men
Very true.
It would be interesting to do some sort of comparison between "women who expect the man to be gentlemanly and pay for the dates (Vs showing manners and consideration to all) / some of us are just feminine and don't need to behave like men (whatever that means)" and "women who find themselves 2 years into a relationship after the honeymoon phase feeling unappreciated as they end up doing all the stereotypically female job roles around the house".

I'd sooner see social change on gender roles in the home, greater shared caring responsibility etc, but it requires people to hold the expectation that a man will do his fair share, not "help", and I'm not sure how far we'll get on that if there's still people thinking that a man should wine and dine them.

I'd sooner see social change on gender roles in the home, greater shared caring responsibility etc, but it requires people to hold the expectation that a man will do his fair share, not "help", and I'm not sure how far we'll get on that if there's still people thinking that a man should wine and dine them.

Not everyone wants this. I think the best that we can hope for is that men and women discuss this sort of stuff exhaustively before they settle on a mate.

........

I wanted a fixed gender role in my relationship - I wanted to stay at home if financial feasible, to do all the childcare and housework and cooking. I also wanted DH to pay for dates. Happily, he also enjoys the same traditional values and therefore our marriage works well.

I think gender roles can be as “fixed” as you want to make them, frankly. It’s far too simplistic to argue that a man who is more “traditional” on dates will expect his wife to do “all the housework” if they got married I mean, he might do, but equally, he might not - obviously. And even if he does, some women may prefer that set up or find that, when all is said and done, that way of like comes more naturally to them.

I think most people are sophisticated enough to not need to take everything as an “absolute.” Also, they realise that “equality” in terms of the workplace or public sphere and how men and women relate in this context, may be different to what they want or need on a personal / emotional / sexual level. When people are dating, they are expressing themselves in a different way. How we choose life partners is instinctive and largely subconscious. You can’t dictate how individuals should want to feel or behave. It’s restricting self-expression.

I’m sure pps will say, “Oh but the personal sphere will influence the public” etc. Again, this is true to an extent, but not necessarily. It’s never as simple as that.

I'd sooner see social change on gender roles in the home, greater shared caring responsibility etc, but it requires people to hold the expectation that a man will do his fair share, not "help", and I'm not sure how far we'll get on that if there's still people thinking that a man should wine and dine them.

Exactly, and surely using the "little woman" persona on a date just attracts men who want that type of woman? If you set out to date a man with 1950s views don't be surprised when he wants you to be a 1950s housewife.

I'd sooner see social change on gender roles in the home, greater shared caring responsibility etc, but it requires people to hold the expectation that a man will do his fair share, not "help", and I'm not sure how far we'll get on that if there's still people thinking that a man should wine and dine them.^

Yes def agree with this but how many 'people' hold the first expectation vs the second ?
I have no figures or article to back it up but suspect there are many mire men out there^

That posted all on its own! I meant to say

Yes def agree with this but how many 'people' hold the first expectation vs the second ?
I have no figures or article to back it up but suspect there are many many more men out there who need to get on board with the first expectation than there are women who believe the second

I tend to organise and pay for any planned days out where we book in advance. DH is useless at planning therefore pays for things when we do them on the fly 🤷🏻‍♀️ Works for us, although we’ve never really made this a rule it just sort of happens!

I haven't really dated, as a grown up. Last time I was single I was at uni and you'd go for drinks or hook up but I never really dated. My ex was a friend first so by the time we were dating, we'd been sleeping together for a while and we'd just take turns paying really. I think he paid more, because he earned more but we already had an established relationship.

I'd feel quite uncomfortable with someone paying for me though and the normal within my friendship groups is to split if dinner and take turns if drinks.
I wouldn't go out for dinner as a first date either though and I'd want to know where we were going and I'd refuse if it was somewhere very expensive. But then I don't like the whole flashy dates thing and especially not very early on.

@matcatwomanheresheis - why have you typed equality in inverted commas?

I'd sooner see social change on gender roles in the home, greater shared caring responsibility etc, but it requires people to hold the expectation that a man will do his fair share, not "help", and I'm not sure how far we'll get on that if there's still people thinking that a man should wine and dine them.

Unfortunately you can expect and want this and be told they do too, until the baby is here and suddenly they can't or won't!

I put equality in inverted commas because I suspect that what I regards as equality may differ from the view of certain posters on here.
For instance, I think you can achieve equality, yet still allow and respect the different biological, emotional and psychological differences that exist between men and women (which may manifest to, some degree, in men and women gravitating towards different behaviours or roles in some spheres of life). It seems other posters think that true equality will only exist when all gender roles are totally abolished.

why have you typed equality in inverted commas?

It means completely different things to different people, and usually 'equality' comes with giving something up that you'd like to keep.

If you don't like the fella for goodness sake don't let him pay

The reality is though, certainly from my experiences and that of my wider male peer group, there is still a sizable number of women who will happily let a man pay for a first date while having no intention of pursing things further.

I guess the issue is, as someone has pointed out already, the dating landscape has changed considerably in the last 20 years with internet dating and tinder etc being the go to platforms when finding a partner. These days it is perfectly acceptable that the women makes the first move in terms of initiating contact and with that the age old mantra of 'whoever does the asking pays' kind of gets thrown out the window. I live in London, the internet dating scene here is such that it is not unusual for people to have multiples dates with different people over one week. It becomes less justifiable to expect a bloke to fork out for all of these, unless of course you are advancing the argument that if a man can't afford it he should retire altogether from the dating scene until his finances can accommodate. I know when I was in my 20s when 'the man pays' was a more prevalent attitude I had to step back as I could not afford it and I did not want to be accused of being a 'skinflint' or 'tight', which seemed a tad unfair a the time.

I think as well for all the talk by some on here of a women being treated, grand gestures and generally the bloke taking a lead and pulling out all the stops to impress a women none of these actions are any reliable indicator as to how a man behaves in the long run. It is also noticeable that some on here seem reluctant to spell out how they behave on a date in terms of 'treating' the bloke unless they think that it is just a one way street with them sitting pretty is treat enough for the man while he runs around doing all the chasing.

I have been on dates where the women concerned have just made a bee-line for some £200 bottle of champagne which I thought was fairly poor form, not because I could not afford it, but because it just showed that person had demonstrated very little consideration for the person picking up the tab. Personally when on a first date I tend to observe things like how they treated waiting or bar staff as a pretty good measure of their character rather then who pays for what.

My oh is the old fashioned one. On our second date (on HIS birthday) we went out to eat and he wouldn't let me pay, we went for dessert and I had to physically shove my card in front of his to pay. I'm a sahm now and I constantly say I should be contributing to the finances but he says that's not my job, it's my job to look after the house/family and his job to pay for us. Just how he was raised

I think as well for all the talk by some on here of a women being treated, grand gestures and generally the bloke taking a lead and pulling out all the stops to impress a women none of these actions are any reliable indicator as to how a man behaves in the long run

Actually @PanGalaticGargleBlaster, based on the experiences of 2 close friends in a very small friendship group, it's a very good indicator. Both friends dated, then married men who pulled out every stop very early on (jewellery, long weekends in the Gulf). Both now divorced and picking up the pieces from being coercively controlled by narcissists.

usually 'equality' comes with giving something up that you'd like to keep.

The price we pay for progression, and I mean progression for women as a class, not you as an individual.

@PanGalaticGargleBlaster I didn't realise you were a man. Good to have you on this thread.

I'm in my 40s and this definitely informs my view - back when I was dating, it was principally mingling at bars amongst friends of friends, very few 'first' dates - maybe 5 or 10 over the single years. It's certainly a trivial sum in this context.

My husband certainly paid the lion's share of our first two or three dates, but we were quickly inseparable and that morphed into a taking turns and a year later an official pooling of funds. I was making quite a bit more than him at the time.

I don't think I know any women who would be willing to trade a date with a man they don't find attractive in the least for a free dinner. This is completely foreign to me. Ordering a £200 bottle of anything is shocking behaviour.

usually 'equality' comes with giving something up that you'd like to keep.

The price we pay for progression, and I mean progression for women as a class, not you as an individual.

You don't speak for women as a class. You don't know what they want.