To be pissed off with 'the man should pay' types?

[wimbmumma]

I just find it so outdated! The only time I've ever let the man pay was, coincidentally, on my first date with my ex husband. Doesn't even cross most of me and my friends' minds that you should split it (if it is a dinner date that is) but A LOT of the schoolmums feel very differently, as they made abundantly clear at a coffee morning... so AIBU to find them a bit annoying and utterly stuck in the 19th century

Lovely as in, it would be lovely for him if I offered to pay too. Which I do. As I would with a female too. Its just nice to do things for people from time to time with no expectation of return.

I had a friend who used to get huffy on dates if the guy didn't offer to pay and she had a real victim mentality on her life in general. I'm saying no one should assume anyone owes them anything but it feels good sometimes to do something for someone else. Or yeah split the bill, whichever works best at the time, in the circumstances, with the individuals involved. It doesn't have to be about outdated chivolry or this massive gender issue. Yoy highlight the gender thing by obsessing about it, pay, split, don't pay. We're all just people.

"@AhNowTed stop making up your own version of events to try and win your (lame) argument"

@littlehappyhippo I know right. She even invented some imaginary DC for me. When the reason i actually took notice of whats going on with men not paying Child Support and the CMS being as useful as a chocolate fireguard despite having no skin in the game myself is because it leaves women and children in poverty. I thought id made that clear but evidently not. And the CMS chat was a PINNED post. Caring about how women are treated in situations like this despite it not affecting you personally is closer to feminism than policing how women behave on dates.

It’s very telling actually, that the ones who go on and on about going 50/50 seem unable to comprehend that the “traditional” behaviour of the man paying for the first dates or whatever is not actually about money at all. But because these posters don’t understand it, or it makes them uncomfortable, they get all defensive and inflict their own mindset on everyone else - “Oh you must want a free dinner”, “Hypocrite,” “It’s not fair”, “It’s not equality,” blah blah. They don’t grasp that some people are beyond that logic and it’s not about money at all.

I did half stand up and glare at them (they were in the seats behind me) and they did stop. But why should I have to do that? I think some people just have no standards or maybe they think they’re hilarious

What would your dh have done any differently? You didn’t need him there to rescue you from these awful men. I agree that their behaviour was bad. I’ve been on a train with women behaving badly in the same way. Sex is not the problem here, it’s their actions.

They don’t grasp that some people are beyond that logic and it’s not about money at all.

I totally agree that some posters are beyond logic and twisting themselves in all directions to justify some of the perks of chivalry without seeing the bigger picture.

"They have been socialised to fit a particular gender role"

Exactly @PurpleDaisies I wonder why you are happy to point this out when it comes to men but not when it comes to women Have women not been socialised to fit a gender role then,

@matcatwomanheresheis What do you mean by getting defensive? Having a different opinion on it?

Women are absolutely socialised to fit a gender role. That role is subservient, meek, in need of protection and not something I think should be the case in modern society. Expecting this chivalrous behaviour does NOBODY any favours, man or woman.

No no. In your view.

Well it is quite clearly your view as well. Your words:

I'd never assume the man would continually pay date after date after date. But I do think it's chivalrous and indicative of not being tight (I hate tight/stingey)

And why just in a man?

Because in the context of the conversation to hand you specifically referenced a 'man' in your first post.

*In my view, someone who repeatedly doesn't reciprocate the other person's effort is tight and stingey. Someone who does the whole "my pasta was £13 and your chicken was £17" instead of, "that's £15 each" (more acceptable if your out with mates, not as a couple) is tight and stingey. Do I want a relationship with someone who's going to quibble over £2?"

Good job on moving the goalposts. This whole thread is about expectations as to who pays on a first date, you have made it quite clear you would consider it 'tight' behaviour if a bloke did not offer to pay for a first date.

Don't professionally misinterpret what I say then tell me what I mean...

Be clear with what you mean in your posts then.

I do see the bigger picture Daisies, I also know that not everything is black and white, nor do I need to “prove” anything. I know I’m equal to men. I am 100% certain of that. But I also know I don’t need to be “the same” as them in all respects or behaviours. Nor do I want to be particularly. So I’m not threatened by chivalry in men no. It’s totally obvious that bring a gentleman in terms of behaviour towards women in particular, does NOT necessarily equate to seeing women as inferior, or stupid, or not deserving of equal opportunities in the workplace. Most men are not so dim as to be unable to make such distinctions. People can separate things out. It’s really not difficult.

Surely you should date men who broadly share your world view, and others can do the same?

It’s terribly saddening some woman on here, hold such antiquated views. It’s 2019 for the love of God

It’s totally obvious that bring a gentleman in terms of behaviour towards women in particular, does NOT necessarily equate to seeing women as inferior, or stupid, or not deserving of equal opportunities in the workplace. Most men are not so dim as to be unable to make such distinctions.

The reinforcement of the traditional woman's role is insidious. That's why it's problematic in the longer term to allow the grey areas that benefit women in the immediate term (ie getting dinner paid for) to continue to be promoted.

@PurpleDaisies But why is it only womens responsibility to change things.

I would like to say at this point that one of the reasons im child free by choice is down to the expectations that childcare should be mainly the responsibility of women. And for the benefit of @AhNowTed that brilliant feminist who is all over the threads about single parents Universal Credit and housing that no my DH is not the problem. Hes 69 and treats me as an equal Something men my own age didnt want to do.

But why is it only womens responsibility to change things.

Helena I find you extremely frustrating. You keep ascribing things to me that I haven’t said anywhere in my posts.

Not something I can get worked up about to be honest .
If the men don’t mind paying all the time then there’s no issue with women who feel like this

@helenadove

You're confusing me with someone else. I've never commented about UC, nor have I said your DH is a problem. Not a clue what you're talking about.

No but you intimated hippos DH was a problem. I was simply pre empting the tirade. Because you seem to assume that we all live by your standards. And only care about things that directly affect us. And i think you are the one who is confused. My imaginary children who you invented agree with me.

"ive never commented about UC"

Aint that the truth. Which is exactly what i was pointing out. You never see certain "feminists" who appear on these date paying threads with regularity on the threads about subjects or polices that really badly affect women.

*policies

Now you're being utterly ridiculous.

I'm not a feminist because I don't post in certain threads. Seriously!

Aint that the truth. Which is exactly what i was pointing out. You never see certain "feminists" who appear on these date paying threads with regularity on the threads about subjects or polices that really badly affect women.

How do you know she's British?, I would have thought with a user name like hers, she's Irish and therefore wouldn't be following your policies in the UK

Meh. Get a life and a grip. What's it to you that others feel differently from you? So what. YABU.

“The reinforcement of the traditional woman's role is insidious”

Well yes, but I think you’re oversimplifying to be honest and that also is problematic and leads to stupid stereotypes of another kind. Surely, in this day and age, people are free to date in whatever way they want? Certain types will attract each other. That’s fine. As long as women have the self-awareness and confidence to realise that a man wanting to pay for dinner does not necessarily mean that he will expect x,y,x or must be trying to patronise her, then she can just accept it for what it is in the spirit that it’s meant and enjoy it. You don’t need to read “equality” into every detail of everything. Life and dating do not need to go like some kind of A-level essay on gender equality where “this” must mean “ this”. Dating and human relationships far more nuanced than that and most people manage to separate things out. They decide in their own boundaries based on how feel and what they want in a partner.

@littlehappyhippo Not the case. I split 50/50 on early dates until it’s clear we will continue seeing each other, then I go for taking turns. I do 100% of child care, 100% of parenting admin and life admin and 80% of the cleaning (I have a cleaner once a week).

@matcatwomanheresheis they are all very valid points, but based on individual experience. Nothing will change as long as people continue to view life through their own lens. As an analogy, based on my individual situation, I can benefit economically from a conservative government. Millions of others will continue to suffer under one. As long as that's the case I'll never vote for them. If I earn more than the man next to for doing the same job, should I not support efforts for equal pay or closing the gender pay gap? Looking at the bigger picture isn't simplistic. If an individual women is truly committed to equality for ALL women, she won't pick and mix her beliefs or hide behind nuance.

But not every women is up for the fight and that's reality.