To think school shouldn’t insist that everyone wears a poppy and donates £1

[moonlightholly]

It’s supposedly in a deprived area too - there are constant reminders of the high percentage of pupils with PP.

Also, I don’t think a school should insist everyone wears a poppy - or AIBU?

Back from the Remembrance Service, feeling somber but heartened by the number of attendees on such a bitterly cold day. Most people were wearing poppies, some weren't. It didn't matter. The Service was put together well. The parade (from the local RBL around the town and stopping at the memorial) went well and the young people (Scouts, Guides, Cadets etc ) did themselves proud. Shoppers stopped in respect when they passed and cars stopped on the main road (that wasn't closed) at 11am.

It doesn't matter if you wear a poppy or not. It doesn't matter if you support the RBL or not. As long as those that do aren't hindered from giving Remembrance in the way they wish to. We are all equal (and I'm very glad the horrible racist post on this thread has gone). There are good and bad in all areas of life, but I don't blame the younger generations for something the older generation did. I don't blame the many for the actions of the few.

Our school will be holding a Service tomorrow. I expect most of the children will be wearing poppies (or slap bands/wrist bands etc) as we pretty much sold out by Friday. But those that aren't won't have a finger pointed at them, and those that don't want to attend are asked to help out in the 'creche' provided in one of the classrooms for youngsters of parent attendees. That's as it should be - our school is inclusive in all ways.

Every year I get asked to speak to the Year 6's because I wear my medals to the school service and lots are curious. I tell them of my friends and how important it is to me to Remember and honour them on that day. Some have stories to tell themselves - it's a good way to remember and I think it is important for our youngsters to understand the risks involved in joining the military.

Hopefully none of them ever raise the issue of Bloody Sunday with you.

Why would you hope that? One of my friends that I remember during the Service was killed in Northern Ireland in 1992. I speak about him and about the conflict in NI and how it was before the Good Friday Agreement. If a 10 year old bought up Bloody Sunday (highly unlikely) I would talk about it. I have nothing to hide, experience teaches us to learn from our mistakes. It was a terrible incident, and we all have to learn to make sure nothing like that happens again.

Hopefully none of them ever raise the issue of Bloody Sunday with you

Yes it was shocking but it was 47 years ago. The soldiers who have come since are very different in age, cultural background and outlook. It's like saying Germans who live now are responsible for he Holocaust. You can't keep looking backwards all the time and saying everyone in a certain category is evil, it's a nonsense and the GFA would never have happened if everyone kept taking that view.

no-one seems to care about the veterans on the streets. And how many of them suffer with MH issues but don't have adequate care

Quite. Of course the government and NHS should take charge of their care, but as I posted quite a few pages back, why are the military charities not taking the lead in helping them?

Because of your comment to whyamidoingthis when she mentioned the issue more times than you'd have liked lteve.

You can't keep looking backwards all the time and saying everyone in a certain category is evil, it's a nonsense and the GFA would never have happened if everyone kept taking that view.

Quite the strawman you've built there.

Because of your comment to whyamidoingthis when she mentioned the issue more times than you'd have liked lteve.

What, that she is a one trick pony and she was boring me? I stand by that. 14 posts on a thread, 13 of which mention NI/Bloody Sunday and nothing else. On a thread started about a school demanding £1 for a poppy (which is wrong). No-one has said that Bloody Sunday was right/correct/good. There is no need to bang on about it. Other posters (like yourself) are obviously anti-military but manage to articulate their points (if they have them) in a more well rounded (and frankly more relevant) manner.

I am allowed to be bored by a person you know, we all have a view. I was just being honest

I'm not anti-military.

And sure, it's your honest opinion and you're allowed it. No argument there, but it being your honest opinion is what concerns me. Bloody Sunday is exceptionally relevant for a group of people who, for better or for worse, are part of the UK. The RBL provide support to ex-Forces and that includes those who served in NI and did some fucking awful things to the civilian population there, Bloody Sunday being only one example. Yes, I know they didn't all do it and the British Army had plenty of company in terms of atrocity committing, but the RBL aren't providing support to any other faction.

So when the RBL campaign includes support for those who were in NI, it means Bloody Sunday is always relevant to the issue. You cannot separate the poppy campaign from the experiences of people who have suffered at the hands of the British Army. These people are going to talk about it and they are entitled to do so. It is part of the discussion. If that bores you, well, that's why I'm concerned.

What, that she is a one trick pony and she was boring me? I stand by that. 14 posts on a thread, 13 of which mention NI/Bloody Sunday and nothing else. On a thread started about a school demanding £1 for a poppy (which is wrong)

A thread that had evolved into a discussion on the reasons why people don't wear the poppy and don't support the RBL. Perhaps you missed the other posts articulating their reasons for not wearing a poppy prior to my posts.

Being bored about a discussion on the murder of innocent civilians, including children, (I also mentioned Majella O'Hare as a particularly appalling act) is a shocking indictment of a particular British mindset that sees the nationalist population of Northern Ireland as irrelevant and disposable.

Be bored. But expect to be judged on your boredom.

No. I say again. One poster rattling on about Bloody Sunday bored me.

I am well aware that some British Soldiers have done some bad things - not just in NI but around the world. That doesn't stop me supporting a charity that provides aid & assistance to the Military/Ex Military and their families & dependants. Because the people who need the support are not the same people who have committed the crimes (so to speak).

I was in NI. I didn't commit any crimes. In fact I held together the arm of a teenager who was thrown through the glass window of pizza hut (or Express? Can't remember) on a Saturday afternoon after an IRA coward placed and detonated an incendiary device on a police car stopped at the traffic lights outside. Should the RBL not have supported me when I asked for their assistance, simply for my NI service?

make that 15/14

@exLtEveDallas - No. I say again. One poster rattling on about Bloody Sunday bored me.

And I say again, being bored hearing about the murder of children indicates a calliousness most would be ashamed of.

@exLtEveDallas - your posts are a perfect illustration of why most irish people hold the british military in such disregard.

Its interesting lteve that you interpret my post as a suggestion that the RBL shouldn't support soldiers who were NI (realistically they could hardly exclude them) rather than as one that it's your attitude that is the problem. Which it really is. And your claim that those who need the support are different to those who committed the crimes is not something you can possibly be in a position to verify. You have no idea: you are bullshitting.

But you said yourself The RBL provide support to ex-Forces and that includes those who served in NI and did some fucking awful things to the civilian population there so I'm not sure how else you expect me to interpret it?

As for the rest your claim that those who need the support are different to those who committed the crimes is not something you can possibly be in a position to verify. If a soldier committed a actual crime, he would be punished for it, which often means being kicked out of the Army - and the RBL wouldn't then provide support to him. Simple really. Plus there are lots of hoops to jump through to receive RBL support, and not every request is granted. So no, whilst I cannot know I am right. You also cannot say I am bullshitting.

And again, the RBL supports the Military, not just the Army, so they also support, for example, the RAF pilots shot down and taken as POWs in Iraq in 1991 or the families of the Naval Seaman killed by modern day pirates in 2001/2. That's why I support the RBL - they are inclusive

I expect you not to just invent things that aren't there for a start.

If a soldier committed a actual crime, he would be punished for it, which often means being kicked out of the Army - and the RBL wouldn't then provide support to him. Simple really. Plus there are lots of hoops to jump through to receive RBL support, and not every request is granted. So no, whilst I cannot know I am right. You also cannot say I am bullshitting.

Your claim rests on the rather optimistic assumption that not only are all crimes identified but they're all punished. You simply have no idea if this is true: you cannot say with any reliability at all that every soldier who ever committed a crime in a particular area was even identified, let alone punished.

This means when you clam the two groups are distinct and the RBL don't help anyone who committed a crime, you're bullshitting. I mean, do you suppose the RBL have somehow magically obtained a comprehensive list of every mistreatment that the victim never bothered reporting?

The British Army were active participants in terrorism in the UK. The IRA emerged in 1969 as a response to the daily threat that Catholics, particularly in Belfast faced from loyalist murder gangs.

The British Army were deployed on a peacekeeping mission but quickly sided with the loyalist terror groups and colluded with them to commit many atrocities. The Army played a significant role at a key time in the development of the troubles.

Bloody Sunday is bad enough but it’s a lot more than that, before and after. These were crimes perpetrated against UK civilian citizens.

Ok, well you are going a little OTT now even for me. I understand that you have very strong feelings about this. I'm a little confused, but I doubt very much that you will be able to enlighten me at all.

I am and always will be a staunch supporter of the RBL. I accept that you aren't, and you have your reasons, even if I don't understand them.

I will continue to support the RBL because I feel they provide an invaluable service for the Military, Ex Military and civilians with military ties. A service that the Government should provide, but doesn't.

I will never accept that because some members of the Military were/are unworthy, all are unworthy. There are hundreds of thousands of Military, Ex Military, families and dependants our there - I wouldn't punish them for the actions of the few. That way madness lies.

If a soldier committed a actual crime, he would be punished for it, which often means being kicked out of the Army - and the RBL wouldn't then provide support to him

That is utter nonsense. We just have to look at murders by British soldiers in Northern Ireland for whom there were no consequences. Add to that the collusion with loyalist paramilitaries and you have a large number of soldiers who may or may not have received help from the RBL but who have definitely committed crimes for which they have not been punished.

You appear to be confusing conviction for a crime with committing a crime. Two different things.

I will never accept that because some members of the Military were/are unworthy, all are unworthy.

Nobody has said that. What has been said is that some do not want to support an organisation who is willing to give support to those who have committed atrocities, despite the fact that not all they support have committed atrocities.

I am sure there are many charities and causes you don't support as you don't agree with some of their positions, activities or viewpoints. Surely you can appreciate that others feel that way about a cause you support?

Yes, it's important to understand that Bloody Sunday is merely the worst incident, not the only one. In only one campaign.

If you do actually want to understand and are trying to engage in good faith Lteve, you could start by not being dismissive when people point out the atrocities the British Army have committed. That is a godawful look for someone who is ex-military and who is talking to kids about it on a regular basis, and it is not something you can simply parcel off from the issues of remembrance and RBL support. They're all part of the same whole.

I don't expect you not to support the RBL and that's not actually been the aim of my posts to you. If you were simply ex-Army and held a different view to me it would be no big deal, but you're talking to children about the issue.

Isn’t it more the case than rather than hold the RBL accountable for soldiers that commit atrocities, we let them do the work of looking after the other thousands and thousands and thousands that didn’t and insist the Police, the Army and the Government do get on with seeking out and prosecuting the ones that did?

@TSSDNCOP - and how do you suggest they distinguish between the two, particularly when successive governments have colluded in cover-ups for decades?

Additionally, nobody is holding the RBL accountable for the actions of soldiers but are instead declining to donate to, or support an organisation that supports those who have committed atrocities.

you could start by not being dismissive when people point out the atrocities the British Army have committed

I have been dismissive (read, bored by) one poster who constantly posted one liners about Bloody Sunday. Not anyone else, nor on any other subject.

who is talking to kids about it on a regular basis
Once a year. Never, not even once, been asked about Bloody Sunday. Have been asked about Iraq and Afghanistan, have answered honestly and age appropriately - but with limited experience as I didn't go to Afghan, and was working with POWs in Iraq. My main soul defining moments were in Bosnia. Most of the boys want to know about shooting people and most of the girls want to know why I joined in the first place.