AIBU to ask for your best comeback to this work colleague...

[Seraphina77]

A male work colleague today said to me that employed women/men who choose not to have children should still be entitled to take 12 months off, paid at the equivalent of maternity/paternity pay because "then it's fair".

I was completely sidelined and apart from explaining to him that maternity/paternity leave is not a holiday, I couldn't get my brain in gear quick enough to come up with a cogent argument in response!

Help me out mumsnet... how would you have responded???

by all means, have twelve months off, to volunteer at an ophange, or foster kids. Maternity leave is not a holiday.

I agree with your colleague. Not because I think maternity leave is a 'holiday' but because parents aren't the only ones with caring responsibilities, and having children is, after all, a choice - unlike, for example, having to care for elderly parents.

To those saying 'save up the money and take time off unpaid' - the problem is that there is no guarantee of being able to return to the same role.

I don't disagree with any of the provisions given to parents by law - I think they're a great thing. What disgusts me is that they aren't available to anyone else. Again and again, if you don't procreate, society sees you as a second-class citizen.

So, how would I have responded to your colleague? By saying "Hear, hear!".

There seems to be a complete lack of understanding on much of this thread that parental leave isn't for the benefit of parents, it's for the benefit of children.

Plenty of countries have children that are thriving on a much shorter maternity leave. I thought it was 18 weeks in Australia, they don't seem to be a depressed and suffering people, do they? It's 16 weeks in the Netherlands, a country that scores quite high on the happy index.

I agree with him.

Men and women have sex. Women get pregnant. Women look after children and lose wages.

It may be a choice in theory but in reality it’s a biological impulse and a social necessity. It’s also not a picnic.

Unless we want to go back to the 1950s, send women back into the kitchen, lose female talent in the workplace and negatively affect women’s mental health then I’d say maternity pay is somewhat necessary.

hen I’d say maternity pay is somewhat necessary.
no one is saying that it isn't, but we are also saying that the safety of finding your job back when you want a one-off break should be there for everybody.

Flexible time and part-time work being more available and more common would be great too - and not only for mothers! (or fathers)

Can’t work out why some people are comparing maternity pay to sick pay. You choose to have a child, you don’t choose to get sick.
I agree with your colleague.

Women look after children and lose wages.

Obviously women have to take maternity leave for the period immediately before and after the birth, but they can split the extended leave with their partner.

in reality it’s a biological impulse and a social necessity.

It's really not a social necessity to have children. The world is vastly over-populated. It might be a biological impulse, but it's still a choice whether to give in to it. We don't go round indulging each and every 'biological impulse' that we have, as soon as we have it - otherwise we'd live in anarchy and chaos.

As others have said, how would the employer know for sure he/she was never going to have children though? Is he saying that if he took the time and then changed his mind about having kids he would forfeit his paternity leave/ a female employee would forfeit her maternity leave?

Taking maternity leave may actually improve babies' health, too. A study published in the journal PLoS Medicine found that every additional month of maternity leave was associated with a 13 percent reduction in infant mortality.

how would the employer know for sure he/she was never going to have children though?

Firstly, should that even come into it? Why should a 'long service sabbatical' be denied to parents who have already had maternity/paternity leave?

Secondly, if the stance was taken that it should be 'instead of' not 'as well as' it could simply mean that the extended period of paid leave was considered as forfeited.

Thirdly, there will be people whose medical records could easily prove that they will never have children - anyone who has had a vasectomy, sterilization, hysterectomy, oophorectomy, low sperm count, inviable ovarian reserve or is post-menopause.

Firstly, should that even come into it? Why should a 'long service sabbatical' be denied to parents who have already had maternity/paternity leave?

Secondly, if the stance was taken that it should be 'instead of' not 'as well as' it could simply mean that the extended period of paid leave was considered as forfeited.

No that's fair, I'd be up for it, I just took the OP to mean instead of rather than as well as

Fair enough, does that mean people with children could do it as well?

Thirdly, there will be people whose medical records could easily prove that they will never have children - anyone who has had a vasectomy, sterilization, hysterectomy, oophorectomy, low sperm count, inviable ovarian reserve or is post-menopause.

What if they decided to adopt or go for surrogacy?

Ignore this line, meant to delete it Fair enough, does that mean people with children could do it as well?

What if they decided to adopt or go for surrogacy?

That's a good point, but I suppose they could be asked to sign a waiver of their parental leave rights, because adoption or surrogacy, unlike pregnancy, is never going to happen accidentally.

But as I said, I'd support this on an 'as well as' not 'instead of' basis - I was really just addressing the hypothetical situations to show ways it could be implemented without being unfair.

But as I said, I'd support this on an 'as well as' not 'instead of' basis - I was really just addressing the hypothetical situations to show ways it could be implemented without being unfair.

Yeah me too. I just didn't see how an "instead of" scenario could really work

The break is for the child, not so much the parents - except for a bit of physical recovery for mum. Also, most people do not get 12 months paid time off. Also most companies over a certain size allow staff to take 12 months unpaid as a sabbatical.

Who’s going to be working to pay your pension ?

Only skim read, sorry if it has been said. I kind of agree with him. I feel the same about smokers. Can I go off every couple of hours for 20 mins and hang around the side of the building? Or add the time up and go off an hour early?

What it fair for one should be fair for another. Though with maternity at least the parents are doing something that helps society by having a child. They will be(hopefully) future taxpayers, health carers etc so we all benefit.

Who’s going to be working to pay your pension ?

The hefty chunk that comes out of my salary every month pays my pension! I get a nice little statement from time to time showing me the pittance I'll have to live off when I retire ... .

Just thought of something else too .
Over the years I’ve heard pensioners moaning that they are paying for someone else’s child’s education - conveniently forgetting that they and their own children and grandchildren had that chance .
I’ve heard people moaning about pensioners getting a pension from the state forgetting that they paid into the system over many years .
People moaning constantly about the NHS until they need treatment that’s urgent and for something life threatening .
Some is if believe in something called society - others just don’t .
Many companies offer paternity leave as well as maternity leave . The couple
can decide how to take it .
If your colleague voiced this in a country like Norway he’d be considered crazy .
Timesheets allowed working women protected time off to express breast milk years ago . The status of women who work was much more important there twenty years ago . We are behind the times .

Over the years I’ve heard pensioners moaning that they are paying for someone else’s child’s education - conveniently forgetting that they and their own children and grandchildren had that chance.

Not all pensioners have children/grandchildren. And as for their own education - none of us chose to be born.

If he poos out a rugby ball, gets woken up every 2 hours and regually vomited on he can have a paid year off work too.

If he poos out a rugby ball, gets woken up every 2 hours and regually vomited on he can have a paid year off work too

Oh SNORE. Thousands of women who fought for contraceptive rights are TURNING IN THEIR GRAVES hearing women today spout out this bollocks.

You had a CHOICE.

By all means make a good argument to counteract OP's colleague's point, but please don't insult your and everyone else's intelligence with the idea that motherhood is some kind of enforced martyrdom.

Economically having kids benefits us all. That includes those of us (like me) who don't have them.

Maternity leave and free education are part of the costs we all bear because we all benefit. Even if we don't see it.

Now while it wouldn't be jolly nice if there was something similar to maternity leave that a childless individual could take when settling in their new pet, I can see how this could easily get abused.

Honestly as a childless woman I have thought very occasionally about how nice a maternity leave "break" would be. But it's a total misnomer. The effort that goes into being a parent, during leave and when you return to work, is massive and written large for us all to see.

As to the OP's ask for a fitting come-back. There's no point. You won't shame him or make him change his mind. Don't spend your actual and mental time with people like that.

Economically having kids benefits us all.

But it ruins our planet.