To think miscarriage advice is total toss

[Hey1256]

So when you have a miscarriage the first thing they 'assume' is it's nothing you've done wrong.

How do they know? They've not even asked if I have been drinking alcohol, taken drugs or anything.

There's so much bollocks around about not drinking more than two cups of coffee a day, no late or soft cheese, no hot baths, Saunas,

If this stuff really prevents miscarriage then why the hell when I have one has no one bothered to ask me if I have been sticking to these rules or warning me to do that if there's a next time I'm aware of how to prevent it.

In which case, if there 'nothing I could have done' probably should just drink as much coffee as I want next time. What's the point of a miserable pregnancy if these things actually don't contribute to miscarriage and there's 'nothing I could have done - just genetics'

It's all BS, I think doctors talk rubbish just to spare women's feelings. We either can prevent miscarriage or we can't so why bother have all this bullshit pregnancy rules.

@priceofprogress

I don't think there is anything wrong with the guidelines necessarily, but I do think the way they are communicated to pregnant women can sometimes be too alarmist. There have been threads on here a plenty, with very scared expectant mothers freaking the fuck out because they accidentally ate some goats cheese i should know, I started more than one of these threads myself. I also once saw a thread where someone who didn't know she was pregnant had been on holiday and drunk a lot of alcohol over the course of a week. She wanted the baby but said she was going to have an abortion because of the damage which she thought she was GUARANTEED to have done her baby. Nobody could talk her down. It was horrible. I don't know how that all ended.

The thing is, especially with things like listeria, it's good to tell women that they should avoid these things but also that if they accidentally have a bit, the risks are incredibly low. And listeria can come from anywhere btw, fruit, veg, butter. It's higher risk in things like pate and soft cheese, but tbh, nothing is 100% safe unless you've cooked it all yourself or do what I did and go back to the office and microwave your jacket potato to boiling point after you buy it from the cafe in your lunch hour. I remember being strangely comforted by finding out that people have contracted listeriosis from "safe" foods, because, to a point, there's not a lot you can do to avoid it completely. Follow the guidelines, but also don't have a breakdown if you mess up a bit. I also once tried to make myself sick after the waiter gave me DH's medium rare burger in a restaurant, instead of my well done. Lack of critical thinking? Yes! But on the other side, following the guidelines and aiming so much for perfection that I believed entirely that I would do my baby serious damage if I messed up even a little bit.

It's about balance, because it isn't good for anyone's mental health, having this^^ sort of paranoia about it. I wish someone medical had told me to calm down a bit.

My view is that it's because women these days are presumed to be unable to handle scientific information or facts because they're all a mental health case waiting to explode. It's patronising.

This is my point. Exactly as a previous poster mentioned above. I do think during pregnancy women are wrapped up as some notional unable irrational beings that need information watered down.

Very patronising. I want facts and information irrespective of how it may upset me.

I still think they shouldn't say caffeine increases miscarriage then if it's by 0.0000001 percent and just say it contributes to the overall health of the baby.

I still think so many of the guidelines are scaremongering

The guidelines don't exist to prevent miscarriage. I think you are fixating on them, and I completely understand why, but avoiding soft cheese isn't a measure to prevent miscarriage. There is a tiny risk attached and they are simply making you aware of that fact. They don't tell you not to stick your head in the oven either but you wouldn't do it.

So sorry about your miscarriage OP. I've had two - the first was ectopic, and the second was due to Trisomy 21. Before I got the T21 result I was really questioning if I could have done anything differently, but once we got the results I realised that she was doomed from the start. As my consultant said to me, a healthy embryo will be fine through fire, famine and flood! If anything in the guidelines had been proved to cause miscarriage, then there would be no need for abortion clinics. I hope you recover easily, both physically and emotionally. All the best to you.

Priceofprogress, I find your post ironic because assessing risk (of which guidelines are only a part of) involves critical thinking and it looks like you are saying guidelines=critical thinking (which in my opinion is not the case AT ALL).

This is meant kindly OP, your upset is completely understandable but, your most recent post seems a little contradictory. You want unvarnished facts - but reject them as scaremongering.

Guidelines are guidelines. They have to be simple, easy to remember, easy to implement and 'one size fits all'. That's true of all health guidelines e.g. 'five a day' is populist, unscientific tosh in one sense but in another, it was judged the best way to serve a particular public health purpose.

If you want precise statistics, to drill down into the detail, or to do a risk assessment based on your own particular lifestyle, you can do that by looking things up.

But in the end, as my GP pointed out to me, if a foetus is going to stick, it will stick despite pretty much anything you can do. If it is isn't going to, it won't and nothing you can do will change that.

I’m so very sorry for your loss op and I generally agree with what you’re saying.

Not only do they not discuss the many factors that a pregnant mother can influence they definitely don’t address the medical professions own failings!

I lost 3 before dd, I had undx endo which was finally discovered and dx when I was having a 2nd surgery relating to the 2nd mc (twins).

I can of course never know for certain, but it is possible I wouldn’t have had those mc if the endo had been dx and treated earlier.

I’d had 4 years of classic symptoms which I had reported by the time of the 1st mc and 14 years by the time of the 2nd.

I undertook my own research after the last mc and before I even stopped taking pill to ttc dd I stopped drinking alcohol, cut out caffeine (which is in far more than people realise, not just coffee and cola), stopped high impact exercise, started taking prenatal vitamins and made my diet as natural with as few additives as possible.

It genuinely shocks me given what I learned that nigh on TWO decades later Uk women STILL aren’t being told honestly about the risks of alcohol, caffeine and certain food additives (a few have since been banned from the Uk market anyway)

I didn’t feel it was me blaming myself or punishing myself by taking these measures, but instead giving myself the best chance of a successful pregnancy. It felt empowering and let me feel a little more in control, and if I’d had another mc I genuinely believe I would at least have felt like I had done all I could to prevent.

I’m not saying all pregnant women need to go to those extremes but I do personally find it very hard to understand pregnant women who take very well known risks with their pregnancies eg with alcohol and smoking, especially ones who have a history of mc.

“In most cases miscarriage is normal. It is a part of pregnancy and life. It is hard and painful and grim. But for most it is the body doing the job it is supposed to do and expelling a genetically unsound embryo or fetus.” Given the woeful lack of research or testing on pregnancy products you cannot possibly know this. It’s a “comforting lie” which isn’t really comforting for those of us who have more than one mc.

Those of you making comments like this have you experienced mc? More than one? More than 3?

I have several friends and family who very sadly have been through several mc, some of them at quite late stages.

Many have NEVER had answers (because you must have 3 consecutive mc before the nhs will test generally, if you have 2 mc then a successful pregnancy and then another mc no testing)

A few have been able to find answers and these women have been found to have conditions that are easily and relatively cheaply (compared to treating a mc) able to test for and treat. They have been understandably upset and distraught when they discover this and yes angry too that eg something as simple as taking low dose aspirin or hormones could have prevented their pain and suffering.

But also the timing of such discussions does need to be sensitive. The immediate aftermath is probably not the best time for most women UNLESS they specifically ask to discuss it. But after a suitable amount of time/when they indicate an interest in ttc again yes it would make sense.

It genuinely shocks me given what I learned that nigh on TWO decades later Uk women STILL aren’t being told honestly about the risks of alcohol, caffeine and certain food additives

I'm not planning any more pregnancies, but I'm curious...what do you mean we aren't being told honestly about the risks of caffeine, alcohol and food additives? Would you be able to link to any "honest" information on that?

Also, I'm so very sorry to read about all your losses . It must be distressing to discover that medical treatment may have prevented them if you had been tested earlier .

That was to @Graphista sorry. Should've tagged!

On another note my anger is also directed at my DH. He's been supportive to some level but then;

• Hasn't even offered me so much as a cup of tea

• no hug after they delivered the bad news. The sonographer has to step in and hug me. He is awkward with his emotions and I understand this but ffs anyone with half a brain can just fake a hug right?

• Moaned at me for waking him up morning of the op as I wasn't organised enough to take my clothes out from night before so to not wake him

• Picked me and although nurses said come to the ward he didn't because parking is a pain

• Not so much of a hug after my d and c

• Went to sleep as soon as we got back from the op for waking him up in the morning even though I wanted to lie down I must go somewhere else to do it because the bed is for sleeping

I appreciate this is not on the original issue but does anyone else's husband turn into something else after something like this?

Maybe my hormones are not allowing me to see clearly and these are not big issues?

This is adding to my overall anger at the whole thing. Times like this I wish I still lived with my mom who could show she cares

If the midwife/doctor/sonographer had started questioning my caffeine intake, food intake and so fourth after I lost my baby, I would probably have given in to the dispair and dark thoughts that engulfed me after I mc at 13 weeks. I did everything by the book, but I still would have worried that other people thought I'd 'killed' my baby. I felt guilty for having work stress, I tried to trace back the day they thought the baby's heart stopped to see if it coincided with an argument I had with my husband. I already felt so fucking guilty it led to a breakdown and months of depression. Im sorry for your loss, but YABU. You are angry, your dh is acting like an insensitive twat. So are his family. You want this to be your fault so you have a reason. Sometimes, there is no fucking reason. A cell not splitting as it should, the heartbeat stopping before birth, a chromosome anomaly. All solid reasons as to why women miscarry. Extensive research tells us it is more likely to be one of these reasons. However, there is no money to diagnose each and every loss because one in four of us go through this horror, some more than once. Im greatful the doctors didnt drag me over every detail of the 12 weeks I was pregnant, I'd have sank even further into dispair. I just wish they'd warned me what the mc would be like instead of saying it would 'just be a heavy period'. I find your op incredibly insensitive and hurtful. The vast majority of women on here who experience pregnancy loss, lose a baby that was loved and wanted, its absolutely the right thing not to blame them for their loss. If you want some answers, consider looking at Tommy's. They are a charity seeking to find answers so no woman has to be told 'its one of those things'. I found their support and advice very helpful.

It sounds like your husband is an insensitive twerp and his behaviour actually sounds quite cruel. I assume you must have been quite far along if your family knew about your pregnancy. Can you show him exactly what you’ve written in your last post? Maybe seeing all his behaviour laid out like that will shock him into his senses?

@Samosaurus I was almost ten weeks we decided to tell people sooner as honestly, looking at the statistics of miscarriage a felt the odds were in my favour of not having one so just took it as 'I'm pregnant' . I'm also a big believer in not worrying until a reason to worry so didn't see keeping it secret a thing.

I wouldn't like to show him. Because he gets angry whenever I get opinions from MN and says it's one sided as I'm purely picking out negatives and no positives.

Although I might show him and suggest some relationship counselling before we try again as I think things need ironing out

I think that sounds really sensible op. I do think he has been insensitive and a bit cruel. What does he say about how his family have behaved? Because if he doesn't support you there, that definitely would be worth sorting before you try again imo.

I didn't say anything about how his family behaved. The women in his family were lovely about it all, it's grandparents and the men in his family (who are typically quite cold like him) that didn't say anything.

If I bring it up I can tell you what he'll say. 'Why would they bring it up and put a downer on the afternoon when everyone is there ti have a nice time'

He sees discussing trauma as 'negativity' as it can't be changed

Hey1256 it sounds like you are going through a really awful time. Miscarriage is shit, it hurts a lot emotionally. I was a wreck after all mine. It took me a good few months every time before I could contemplate trying again.

I remember the second one the most, we had gone for our 12 week scan and the baby had died. My DH broke down, I just wanted it out. I'd had a natural miscarriage with the first one and not known pain and bleeding like it, I couldn't go through that again. I went in on Christmas Eve for a D&C it was horrible and I had to stay in overnight because I was ill. It was only after that I started to grieve properly and it took me months to feel better.

Feeling better was a very gradual process and then we had to go through it another four times. There is nothing anyone can say or do that will make it better.

I'm sorry your DH isn't giving you as much support as he maybe could. I hope you are getting some support.

I used to get angry when people seemed to be having babies all around me and I wasn't it didn't seem fair.

As I said it was a LONG time ago I did my research and this is just from quick googling just now, I’m sure you sensible lot are more than capable of looking for yourselves.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080121080402.htm

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2016/03/28/coffee-consumption-in-either-parent-may-affect-miscarriage-risk/amp/

The links to what the father does having an effect on pregnancy are fairly recent and not what I found when I was looking all those years ago.

Iirc (and it WAS 20 Ish years ago) at the time Uk mums to be weren’t being told AT ALL about caffeine being a potential risk factor, yet it was standard advice in USA, Canada and I think Australia that caffeine was best avoided in pregnancy and certainly not to excess.

In addition to mothers to be plain knowing about caffeine, there was the issue of many not knowing that caffeine is also in chocolate and of course chocolate flavoured products like ice cream and breakfast cereals, soft drinks aside from cola, over the counter pain meds...

So people don’t realise how much caffeine they’re really consuming.

At the time I was drinking a LOT of strong coffee (big thing where I was working at the time) plus consuming via the other products, when I first went caffeine free I felt VERY ill to the point I went to the dr, I hadn’t linked the 2 as I was making a lot of changes and quite honestly it was also flu season and the symptoms I was getting more closely matched that, headache, dizziness, fatigue, shivers...

Luckily got a “switched on” gp who noticed I was missing other symptoms of that years flu and upon asking a few questions hit upon the cause, advised me to go back to having SOME caffeine and taper it off.

I was genuinely shocked how absolutely rotten I felt!

Op my ex withdrew massively initially, that was his way, bottling things up. Then at his work a colleague announced their pregnancy, he bottled it up at work but when he got home he felt he needed to tell me so I wasn’t blindsided next time I saw her and it was telling me that news that led to the floodgates opening, and he very rarely cried but he just said everything he’d been holding in (which included wondering if there was something HE had done “wrong”) and he admitted he was dreading going into work not only the next day but next few months and seeing his colleagues growing bump, which he felt awful about for obvious reasons but also because he really liked this colleague they got on well.

The fathers often get forgotten in all this, and it’s absolutely right that mothers are prioritised in this scenario and your dh definitely should have behaved better, but don’t forget he’ll be grieving too. Not in the same way but he will.

The thing my ex most struggled with was he couldn’t “fix” it, and he got incredibly frustrated at the history that had led us there. He’d been with me for 2 of the a&e visits due to then undx endo stuff and seen my suffering over the years, getting the dx initially just made him angry cos he was like “she was telling Drs about the symptoms for YEARS” to the hospital dr who initially seemed to be under the wrong impression that I had been hiding them (no idea why it was weird).

Ah right, yes I was aware of the link and was told about it long before we TTC. But also, that it was in high doses that there was real concern, as your articles say.

So, when I read your earlier assertion that "women still aren't being told the honest truth about it" , I assumed there was a secret I hadn't been told, but actually, I was told about that, but as I say and as your articles say, I was told it was high doses, so usually a cup of tea or instant coffee is probably fine in pregnancy.

So, obviously you don't have to answer, but did your DH give up caffeine too, months before TTC, seeing as you did your research and found out that it's either parent?

Honestly, I think we'd all cope better if we discussed miscarriage more. First trimester loss is very very normal - a shitty normal, but normal.

If I think through my close circle of family and friends, of the women who've had children and completed their family, I only know one woman who definitely never had a loss.

DM - one
MIL - two
SIL - one
Aunt - one
Other aunt - not sure, but I've a dim memory from childhood that she had one

Closest friendship group of five women:
Four of us have children, the other has never tried and never had a miscarriage
One had "several" miscarriages
One I don't know, but I suspect she had one
The other girl and I have each had one

Other close work friends
One hasn't had one but has only had one DC and plans more
One has no DC yet, don't know if TTC
The other is the woman who has two children and no miscarriages. But her sister has had two, SIL three, bff one or maybe two.

Etc.

It's normal.

It's shit, but it's normal.

All those women were doing the right things. None have problems with drink, drugs etc. The numbers are too high for it to be something they were all doing unless that something is breathing air.

Hi op

I am so sorry What you have been through is absolutely horrendous. As a midwife, I have looked after many women who have lost babies, both earlier on in pregnancy and right up to term. I would never ever question a woman on her lifestyle at this time, what good could it do? She would see it as an accusation. None of the things you mention are advised to reduce miscarriage, most mc cannot be prevented. Those recommendations are for the health of the baby.

All women are given those bits of advice early on and tbh the vast majority of women know most of those things anyway, without having to be told. If they choose to not follow the guidelines and then suffer a mc, they should not be guilt tripped. It isn't their fault! Those things don't cause mc!

I am sorry your dh is not looking after you well. Again, I am sorry you have gone through this. Be kind to yourself.

BeatriceTheBeast I agree with you 100%, hence my advice to the OP to read Expecting Better. Sorry if I wasn’t clear! I believe women should be given the evidence based facts to make their own minds up regarding which risks they’re comfortable with, I actually feel like a lot of the advice given to pregnant women is pretty infantilising and treats us like we’re incapable of making informed decisions, for example the blanket ‘don’t eat pâté’ advice given by the NHS which doesn’t explain how incredibly tiny the chances are of coming across listeria if you eat it, nor does it explain that there are many other foods that can lead to an infection (I think Expecting Better mentioned that watermelon in the USA was a big culprit at one point yet nobody was saying not to eat that). I think we’re in agreement.

Happyspud

Priceofprogress, I find your post ironic because assessing risk (of which guidelines are only a part of) involves critical thinking and it looks like you are saying guidelines=critical thinking (which in my opinion is not the case AT ALL).

No, I’m not saying that guidelines are the same as critical thinking! Far from it. You need to understand where the guidelines have originated from in my opinion and be willing to explore the source material and see what the up to date information is. Some people don’t have the appetite or time for that and just go by the current NHS guidance which is fine, but I’m not sure why you think I’m saying that blindly following NHS guidelines is critical thinking?

@priceofprogress I must have misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying that you couldn’t believe people who wouldn’t follow the guidelines especially in a time of supposed critical thinking. Your update is in line with my thinking on it.

I'm with you OP. The first thing the sonographer said to me was "you didn't do anything wrong". I know she was just trying to be nice but I was still : how the fuck does she know I didn't go on a massive coke binge last weekend?

I'd also recommend Expecting Better. It's the only non-patronising pregnancy book I've found so far.

No worries Happyspud, I think I made it a bit confusing anywho!

Whatsername7 I’m so sorry for your loss, too

OP, your DH sounds like he isn’t being very supportive. Does he have a history of failing to be there for you when things are tough or is this totally unexpected? If it’s the latter then it may well be his grief and shock affecting the extent to which he’s able to actually support you in the ways that you need, as he’s suffered a loss too. But if it’s the former that’s a much bigger and more distressing problem that may need addressing and working through, especially before considering TTC again.