To think miscarriage advice is total toss

[Hey1256]

So when you have a miscarriage the first thing they 'assume' is it's nothing you've done wrong.

How do they know? They've not even asked if I have been drinking alcohol, taken drugs or anything.

There's so much bollocks around about not drinking more than two cups of coffee a day, no late or soft cheese, no hot baths, Saunas,

If this stuff really prevents miscarriage then why the hell when I have one has no one bothered to ask me if I have been sticking to these rules or warning me to do that if there's a next time I'm aware of how to prevent it.

In which case, if there 'nothing I could have done' probably should just drink as much coffee as I want next time. What's the point of a miserable pregnancy if these things actually don't contribute to miscarriage and there's 'nothing I could have done - just genetics'

It's all BS, I think doctors talk rubbish just to spare women's feelings. We either can prevent miscarriage or we can't so why bother have all this bullshit pregnancy rules.

@TwittleBee - 6-9 weeks is when you will hear the heartbeat. My post says miscarriages are more statistically before this point and less likely after 6-9 weeks when there is a heartbeat. So the risk of miscarriage isn’t equal up to the first 12 weeks.

That makes more sense. Just the line about 6-9 weeks isn't accurate. If it's pre-implantation it's way before then, even before four weeks. Even pre-heartbeat a continuing pregnancy is still more likely than miscarriage.

It's interesting though. I wonder how many people think they just aren't able to conceive when they technically are but it's very early losses.

@Celebelly yeah this is what I am thinking too - I thought @GrumpyHoonMain was saying you are more likely to MC between 6-9 than post 9+ weeks rather than you are more likely to miscarry than go onto have a healthy pregnancy between 6-9 weeks ? I am getting confused now!

*Even pre-heartbeat a continuing pregnancy is still more likely than miscarriage, assuming implantation (which is what gives a positive test). The fact is that once you know you are pregnant, you are more likely not to miscarry than you are. Of course the risk decreases as time goes on but it's still more likely to have a continuing pregnancy at, say, 4.5 weeks than not

I've had six mc, with a definitive cause never identified - some indicators (clotting disorders, for example) but no rhyme or reason (given I have carried to term without heparin and miscarried on it, as well as the other way round). The pattern led to suspicion of a balanced translocation but our karyotypes were normal.

I'm sure this has been explained upthread, but factors that are advised against in the context of mc only refer to a raised risk (or, more precisely, raised odds) of mc in studies. That will never mean that everyone who follows the advice will be OK, nor that everyone who disregards it will mc. It is, in most cases, true that nothing would have 'prevented' a miscarriage.

'Pregnancy guidelines' more generally each refer to specific areas of risk. I always find it frustrating seeing people on threads talking about how guidelines are nonsense because they ate blue cheese and their baby was fine. Listeriosis is a very specific risk and you're either entirely OK or you're not.

6-9 weeks is when you hear the heartbeat. You are statistically less likely to have a miscarriage once a heartbeat can be heard - and this is where the NHS fails in my opinion. Because all IVF patients and most women overseas will have their first viability scan with appropriate blood tests in this time period. So if you have a fixable problem like I did you don’t need to wait for 20 early losses before you get treated - sometimes treatment can be provided earlier and save a pregnancy.

Think yourself lucky: last miscarriage I had, aged 43 trying for another child, the first question the 20 something dr asked was ' Now, what are you going to do about contraception?' !!!
Luckily I took it on the chin being somewhat thick skinned, but I do not think that is a very appropriate question to ask someone that has just miscarried and been scanned to confirm total loss, is it?

I'm really sorry for your loss, and actually I think you make a really good point.

Women have enough to stress about especially in early pregnancy, and if a massive list of rules to follow isn't deemed relevant enough to even ask about after a miscarriage you have to wonder how much of the risk they actually contribute to (accepting previous points that miscarriage isn't the only risk posed by some of these things).

@TwittleBee

'Up to the first 6-9 weeks miscarriage is more statistically common than a continuing pregnancy.'

It's the 'than a continuing pregnancy' bit that's muddying the waters I think. Up to the first 6-9 weeks a miscarriage is more statistically common than after then, but that's the case for the whole of pregnancy. The chances of a miscarriage or stillbirth go down every day (and then up again once you get far over term). There is a steeper decrease in risk once a heartbeat is detected though. But once the embryo is implanted, you're more likely to not miscarry than miscarry regardless. It's just decreasing risk.

@Ariela I have had the opposite! Being 25 (and looking younger than 25!) I always get told I should be waiting to TTC anyway as I am far too young to be having a family!? Also been told I am lucky I am young (yeah real lucky that my children keep dying....) It is so wrong that age should come into these discussions at all regarding whether we are too young or too old! Just rude and insensitive

Yes there we go @Celebelly thank you for clearing it up!

(also sorry OP for things getting a bit derailed!)

My baby died at 19 weeks in the womb from a chromosomal abnormality, I had to give birth. Horrendous as it was the baby's life wasn't viable and so nature took the right course.

Afterwards I would not have appreciated anyone asking me about my health behaviour at all. I did however appreciate the kindness and care of the midwives and counsellors who supported me.

Perhaps kindness and compassion are more important at such times. As independent adults we can all reflect on responsible and healthy behaviours. And there is a proven link between mental and physical health.

I was certainly given useful advice on my recovery and when to start trying again and healthy pregnancies. The conversations during my next pregnancy were thoughtful about both my physical and psychological health. I was understandably petrified of scans.

I have all the sympathy in the world for you OP and others who go through miscarriage. Might it be that questioning the health professionals approach distracts from your pain and sadness? In the end a miscarriage is not usually anyone's fault. Nature takes its course and after the fact what good can be done? Positively planning for the next pregnancy in due course could of course be hugely beneficial. On the solid grounds of good psychological health.

A lot of you don’t seen to understand how the risk of miscarriage changes by week. Please read Tommy’s.

www.tommys.org/our-organisation/charity-research/pregnancy-statistics/miscarriage?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4rfZ2oPT5QIVSLTtCh1cwA9MEAAYASAAEgJ-IvD_BwE

@CatteStreet - I have a rare clotting disorder that the NHS considers a normal genetic variant but fertility clinics with staff trained in the middle east / India consider treatable in women as it’s more common there. i have other issues too so can’t be sure, but the first time I got a continuing pregnancy was the protocol when aspirin and low molecular heparin was given to me from embryo transfer throughout pregnancy. Even now my consultant likes to say I’m ‘lucky’ my fertility consultant is published (which is the only reason why she continued his protocol when I got passed to the NHS) as the NHS wouldn’t have offered that to me and I just feel like shit.

Prof Regan’s book has lots on clotting disorders, they can significantly increase a woman’s risk of mc and other problems.

YANBU! I thought the exact same thing. I was told "it was nothing you did" like some stock phrase they have to trot out knowing precisely nothing about me or my life, and I found it so stupid that felt like saying- "but I took cocaine every day, fell down the stairs, binge drank until I was sick every day and repeatedly stabbed my stomach with a knitting needle, are you sure?" . My view is that it's because women these days are presumed to be unable to handle scientific information or facts because they're all a mental health case waiting to explode. It's patronising. One midwife I went to see was so terrified to mention the fact I had a dead baby inside me that would need to be disposed of via some means after the operation that she spent 5 minutes skirting around the basic question. Instead of simply saying "what shall we do with the remains of the baby- these are your options..." which would have been brisk and perfect, I got 5 painful minutes of elusive crap like "I'm about to raise a terribly sensible subject that noone likes talking about, obviously it's a highly traumatic thought, I'll understand if you can't face this at the moment but we really need to try to discuss something painfully difficult...etc etc etc " until I was so stressed I just blurted out " are you talking about a hysterectory or permanent uterine damage?". I was scared and seriously anxious as she'd hyped up the 'thing that dare not speak its name' so much that I assumed she was talking about something medical and life-changing when all she wanted to know was if I wanted the body cremated. Awful but probably following her guidelines to the letter in case some poor over-sensitive person couldn't handle some facts.

And I understand the point that most miscarriages are not preventable but it is just ridiculous to make a claim about an individual woman without any facts at all.

@GrumpyHoonMain - we do, I was right in that we all know that when I tried to explain what I thought you meant earlier. What was getting confused was the way you phrased it. It made it sound like you were saying you are more likely to MC than go onto have a healthy pregnancy between 6-9 weeks but what you meant was more MCs happen between 6-9 weeks than post 9 week. Which is of course what @Celebelly was also saying with how each day the risk of MC lowers.

80% of MC happen in 1st trimester.

What I am saying is, whilst that is true we cannot count ourselves in the clear past 1st trimester or even past the viability of 24 weeks. (I naively thought all would be okay once I made it past 24 weeks)

Sorry op, Mc is properly awful.
Just to add from my experience (mc at 6 weeks) I was told by nurses at hospital (following scan to confirm loss) not to get pregnant before 3 months to ‘give my system a chance to recover’. Also told another mc would be more likely if I conceived again before the 3 months.
Went home and did my own research... absolutely no evidence to support either of the above claims 🤔
Promptly got pregnant on my following cycle (2 weeks on?!) and he is now a strapping 10 year old 😀
So yes, take most advice with a pinch of salt (even from hcp’s)
Good luck x

@ TwittleBee - Yes very true. There is still a small risk of late miscarriage and a smaller risk of stillbirth. I am 36 weeks currently and due to my clotting disorder I still can’t be 100 percent sure I will take home a baby. DH and I fought about setting up the nursery as he wants to think positively and I don’t really want to plan until I have a live baby.

I honestly don’t think there is anything you could have done, I know people who haven't even used hairspray and still had miscarriages. If it’s going to happen it will.. I’m so so so sorry for your losses I really am.

I've definitely seen and taught children who I think have been affected by drink /drugs. It is more about the development of the child. So sorry for your loss. There is a good boom called expecting better that looks at the research around recommendations.

don't know if I have the energy to go through it all again. Even down to TTC (which should be fun but after a while sex every other becomes a chore) the whole thing has felt like a battle and I'm questioning is it worth it. Is having children so important.

I am most certainly having a break from it all then I will reassess.

Sorry dont know if quote function has worked. I've had 3 mc and really lucky to have 1 dd. This is where I am now. I've wasted (that's what it feels like) so much time being pregnant that hasn't come to anything. Definitely take a break, it's so nice not having the pressure every month in the fertile period then the false hope as your period due date gets closer. Am focusing on getting healthier in body and mind. Deep down I know I want to try again but pretty sure my partner doesn't so also trying to manage expectations.
It's such a crap situation and so unfair but allow yourself to grieve then reassess in the New Year (or after)

That's interesting PetraRabbit I've certainly experienced the 'sensitive' but actually obfuscating and irritating waffle, when I'd have much preferred precisely, fatcually worded directness.

But, on your 'how do they know I'm not a disturbed, alkie, heroin addict' point. It's because you don't look or behave like a disturbed, alkie, heroin addict and you are not already known to HCP and social services as being such. Most people in that situation would be. Just as most criminals are already known to the police. The difference between you and someone likely to have substance abuse-based problems in pregnancy is not small.

'Pregnancy guidelines' more generally each refer to specific areas of risk. I always find it frustrating seeing people on threads talking about how guidelines are nonsense because they ate blue cheese and their baby was fine. Listeriosis is a very specific risk and you're either entirely OK or you're not.

I too find it so frustrating to read the posters who believe that their anecdotal ‘I ate pâté every day and my baby is fine therefore the advice to avoid pâté is nonsense and I advise everyone else to ignore it’ is somehow more valid and applicable and useful than years of careful medical studies.

Even moreso with the ‘our mothers’ generation drank and smoked their entire pregnancies and everyone was fine therefore it’s stupid advice to abstain’.

It’s just a complete lack of critical thinking, it was fine for me therefore the advice is pointless. It makes me despair for the education system that’s churning people out with that level of understanding around how risk works.

It’s important to educate yourself, the information is out there!

Totally feel your pain.
I followed everything by the book and had bad news twice this year. Coffee is my favourite morning drink and makes me happy and I completely cut it out. Took my folic acid, drank 2 litres of water etc. The list goes on.
It's shit! And I think to myself I've followed all these bloody guidelines and what for?!!

I know a lot of women who haven't followed these guidelines and have even continued with drinking the odd glass of wine or smoked etc. But I've learnt I can't keep thinking about what others do because it will just make me even more angry.

Life can be cruel. I believe less worry and a healthy/positive mind will help , I'm certainly not obsessing about what I can and can't do next time! (Apart from the obvious )

Sending you strength and positivity xxxxxxx