To ask if separation can sometimes be better for children?

[Noneedtoberudedear]

Because I really think DH and I are reaching the end of the road...

We have toddler twins and our relationship has gone steadily downhill since they were born. I don’t want them brought up by two fighting parents and we’ve both agreed that separating is probably for the best.

Has anyone separated and found it improved things for them and their children? I feel so scared right now. I honestly don’t know what the future will hold for us all and how I will cope

It sounds like the relationship is potentially salvageable with some hard work. The power dynamic is off though. You ‘saved’ him, made him employable etc, you used your inheritance on IVF, you do 90% of the childcare, you can’t imagine how he could cook/shop/decorate for a Christmas without you. I’m not blaming either of you for these things. He probably did benefit massively from your support and you are carrying a disproportionately heavy load. He needs to be a more independent and self sufficient adult so you can be less in control. It sounds like he is resentful of the dynamic that has developed now that he can see the pitfalls of it.
My parents stayed together despite my father’s great contempt for my mother and it was horrible to be around. It has greatly effected my mental health and self esteem. Would it have been better if they had split up? Maybe, but I suspect it would have just been the same resentments and hatred only exacerbated by fighting over money and child arrangements.

@TwiceAsNice22 do you think having your twins contributed to your marriage breaking up or where things already problematic? I’m glad you’ve managed to find an amicable way forward that works for you Well done for being so strong and making such a tough decision in your children’s best interests. I only hope I can be as brave and level headed.

@Lana08 The trouble is we can’t stop arguing. We tried agreeing that we’d stop arguing, give counselling a go etc. and it just doesn’t work. He’s started personally attaching me verbally really quickly nearly every time, and I know I should hold me tongue but I never manage!

Having twins definitely is stressful. However I do nearly all the night waking, child care and mental load. So how stressed can he be by them?

@Mermaidoutofwater there is a power imbalance, but I don’t know how to fix it? He could become more self sufficient but he doesn’t seem to want to. I’ve asked him to cook/learn to cook. He doesn’t. I’ve asked him to do more housework. He doesn’t. I have a cleaner once a fortnight that we can’t really afford because the house would be an utter shit tip otherwise. He doesn’t even do the gardening. My dad comes over and does it!

He suffers from depression but none of the medication or counselling he’s had seems to make any difference.

I’m so sorry you had such a difficult childhood

What do you (and he) actually WANT?

And is that achievable?

If he doesn't want to be with you (or vv) then that's that.

If however you can both say you want to get past this and learn to love each other positively, then it's worth fighting for.

Like the whole Miranda/Steve thing in SATC, adjusted for your own circumstances.

I wish you luck whatever the outcome

@Noneedtoberudedear I realise things may be tricky on a low income but if you split you’ll have to manage two households anyway (which are both at least 2 bedroom I presume)? So if you could stretch to renting somewhere very small and cheap to try to save your relationship it may be worth a go?

My parents split when I was 5 and my sister was around 6 months. My father was toxic and although he has continued to have more influence on my life than I would like at least their were parts of my life shielded from him.
Split parents are in my opinion better than being brought up around constant arguing and strife (and in my case domestic abuse).

@BuzzShitbagBobbly I want us to stop arguing, be more respectful of each other. I want to feel like he’s making more effort to be a good husband and father. Atm I don’t think he even grasps what those two things really entail.

I just don’t know if it’s achievable

Oh God, never Steve. Miranda should have chucked the cheating tosspot off a bridge

@Stuckinarut81 When I say low income I mean ‘no spare money at all by the end of the month’ low income. We definitely do not have the money to rent a second home. I don’t even know how DH would afford to move out if we did split tbh. He’s have to go to the council to try and get assistance.

I was very relieved when my parents split up. The house was much calmer without them fighting and arguing. It felt like a weight had been lifted.

OP IVF tends to force some couples to stay together that shouldn't really have stayed together at all. If you weren't ttc that whole time or going through IVF do you, honestly, think you would've stayed together as per the status quo before it all? If you knew what you know now about how lazy he is with housework and would've found that out along the way, sans ivf and kids?

I begged my parents to get divorced - their fighting really upset me and ruined my childhood...even now they are elderly, they have not stopped and it can be very unpleasant even staying with them a very short time.
On the flip side - I was determined never to replicate their hideous behaviour and I have managed that, thankfully.

@Andysbestadventure I’m not sure? I’d like to think so obviously, but our life was much different before we started ttc. Lots of going out, drinking, partying, spare income that we don’t have now.

My HV says that lots of IVF couples end up where we are. Perhaps the pressure for everything to be ‘perfect’ becomes too much?

Ironically he wasn’t as lazy housework wise etc. before we had the babies. He does less now than he ever did!

It sounds like you definitely need some couples' counselling. What's coming through your posts is that you feel you do everything for the children and he doesn't contribute enough. You feel unsupported and exhausted. While he maybe feels that you view the children and the house as "yours" and therefore don't let him do things in his own way, so he feels demeaned and powerless and not in control of his own life. This is not an absolutely unsolvable problem but you need to talk about it.

But even if you do end up splitting, working on understanding each other and being sympathetic to each other's point of view will be the thing that really helps your kids. Because even if you split up you will still always have to know him, talk to him, make joint decisions about the kids etc. This isn't just about whether you stay together or not - splitting up won't immediately solve anything any more than staying together would - it's about whether you can work together and respect each other. So work on that first, whatever happens.

Absolutely. I split from stbx 2 years ago, with a 2 yr old and 9 month old. It was immediately better for me and the children. The "only" issues are having to deal with him still, but much less of the time.

@ FlamingoTime The respect is none existent at the moment. We’ve just tried to discuss things and I see red the minute he starts saying I’m obsessed with the babies and don’t care about him anymore! We managed not to row though and I’ve come to bed.

I actually get the feeling he WANTS to leave and just isn’t saying it.

I feel so alone

@Nottalotta was it not incredibly hard looking after such young children on your own? I’m so scared I won’t cope. It just seems so overwhelming.

@Noneedtoberudedear I was absolutely terrified if I'm honest. I'd made the decision 9 months earlier, literally 3 days after dc2 was born. But it took me that long to follow through with it.

But, in reality, I did the majority of the childcare on my own anyway. I wa on maternity leave, and he did nothing in relation to children or household. It wa bedtime that scared me the most, but I soon worked out a good routine. Life is SO much better. I guess it depends on your circumstances really and if your OH is more hands on. In my case, the fact that he takes the DC one day a week means I get 8 hours child free which is more than I had ever before.

Have you considered some couples counselling? Or even just you. I saw relate for several sessions, alone. It really helped.

@Nottalotta I can imagine how scary it was. Well done for making such a hard decision and I’m so glad things have worked out for the best for you and your children.

We are due to start counselling with Relate soon. I’m hoping it will help us to gain some clarity. I just pray we get a good counsellor!

Clarity is exactly the word I used when speaking about my relate sessions. I'm am considering going back with stbx, not to reconcile, but to "seperate better". Good luck with it, I hope it helps you.

Oh, OP

I think it could be salvageable if there was respect and willingness to improve things on both sides. But with each new post from you it seems less hopeful - his attitude and behaviour sound worrying actually, the hatred and nastiness towards you, the lack of engagement in childcare and housework, the depression that isn't improving

You mentioned that he was estranged from his family when you first met him. Sometimes people with toxic families can find it very difficult to start a family of their own. It brings back painful memories, insecurities and anxieties. If you had a difficult childhood it can be very hard to feel confident and happy about being a parent.

If that's what is going on with him, it can be improved, but it will take a lot of therapy, which he may not be able to access. Progress may be slow and even if things do improve, there will already have been a lot of damage done to the relationship. He can't unsay the things he's been saying to you. So you will need to decide whether you can forgive him and continue to love and trust him.

I think your H resents the fact that the household no longer revolves around him and his wishes. It sounds like you have indulged, pampered and looked after him since you married, but now (understandably) your priority is your DC.
Maybe it wasn't the best idea on your part to marry a manchild you felt you could 'improve', even though it sounds like you had some initial success.

If he's not getting to the point of physical aggression and you're not worried it's heading in that direction, it might be worth a session or two with Relate or similar - for one thing, if both of you are reasonably well-intentioned people, a good counsellor can help you sort out divorce in an amicable way that benefits the DC.

But it's not inherently bad for DC to have parents who don't live together. As long as both parents are capable of putting DCs' interests ahead of their own, it generally works out well enough.

A while ago I read something that resonated. In some couple relationships, one of the adults is the parent and the other adult is the child. The child is used to being looked after by the parent, and behavin like a child. This can work out OK until they have children of their own.

When you have a baby (or two), the child's place is usurped by the new baby. They are resentful, and they struggle to move into a parent role. They're losing a parent, in a way, while also struggling to become a parent.

I'm not saying this happens in all couples, but I've definitely seen it happen in quite a few friends' relationships when they had children. It sounds like your OH is the child, and he resents being forced to grow up and become an adult/parent.

@AnotherEmma Now that I’ve gotten to know his family I don’t think they are toxic. His parents are separated and remarried and I get on with them all. His DM did ask him to leave the house when he was 18 and he’s always carried a lot of issues from that. From what I’ve heard from her she just couldn’t cope with him anymore!

@ReanimatedSGB @HoldMyLobster I don’t think he likes not been put first either. When he says all I care about now is the babies I (rightly or wrongly) can’t help thinking what a selfish manchild he sounds.

The woman from Relate came out to speak to us ahead of the start of our sessions this morning. She asked to speak to us separately so we both went up to the bedroom in turn to get out of the way. However our house is very small and DH has quite a carrying voice. I heard snippets of “wanting to separate and co parent” and “it’s been really hard to admit that to myself” I got really upset when she left and he started shouting saying I’m a disgusting person for listening in and just like his mother. He’s gone now to stay at a friends

Oh dear. If really sounds as if HE is the problem. Not you, not his family. He is just an unpleasant person

I am very sorry but it does sound as if you will be happier without him in the long run. And it will be better for the children too - this atmosphere can't be good for them.

I hope so @AnotherEmma I just feel numb right now