To not really understand why people get so angry about toddlers being rough?

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

Went to soft play this morning (for my many sins), to meet some a couple of friends and their toddlers. There was a small Wendy house thing that DS (16 months) was playing in, and another toddler (maybe slightly older, but not much) came over, wanted to play with it and pushed DS over, scratching his face as he did it. I went over to grab DS (who was grizzling but clearly not hurt) and the other boy's mother apologised profusely, to which I said 'oh, don't worry, he's tiny, he doesn't know what he's doing'. She looked surprised by this and my friends when I got back also seemed surprised that I hadn't been angry and started saying that the other little boy was 'spiteful' - wtf?! He was 18 months old at the most! But thinking about it I see this a lot - there are constant (in my view ridiculous) arguments at soft play and there's some drama at DS's nursery (in the room above him, so I've not paid too much heed) where some parents want a biter chucked out of the nursery.

Is it weird that I just don't really get this reaction? Obviously I'd move DS away and say 'no' if he hurt another child (it's never actually come up) but I think it's crazy to act like it's some act of malevolence - young toddlers genuinely don't know that other people have feelings! Am I missing some kind of basic instinct that everyone else has here? Fwiw I told DH about the soft play incident and he was furious - we both thought the other one was being really weird about it!

Sorry, wrong thread.

I had a friend (we lost touch) who had an anxiety disorder. She had a little girl and she was absolutely paranoid about her daughter behaving badly at events. It created this vicious circle where she would reluctantly take her somewhere like a kids party, DD would "behave badly", so she would leave early and go to even less events in the future. The thing is, the DD was only really behaving like some toddlers do behave and the way to demonstrate the right behaviours would be to expose her to the events but she would respond by taking her less often. By the time she was about 5, her behaviour at said events wasn't what you'd expect from a child of that age and it was noticeable and drew attention but that was because these outings become such a huge deal rather than being something she was accustomed to by that pre-school age.

Interesting thread - my son is coming up to 2.5 and there is a child in one of his classes who is slightly older but seems to genuinely enjoy hurting him - he'll walk into the class and straight up to my son and whack him whilst smiling! The mum is v ineffectual and I'm finding it quite upsetting now as to me, the boy seems genuinely spiteful but from reading this thread I'm not sure if I'm being overprotective?! My son is v confused by why the boy hits him and always asks so I feel like past two/once they're verbal they do have an understanding of what is acceptable?!

I think you have to respond to the child you have. Parent attitude is key. DD1 has been bitten many a time when younger - by the same child at nursery- and that was fine, managed appropriately by staff and age appropriate. However, I've distanced myself from one friend as her son is very aggressive and I don't want her getting hurt, my friend just doesn't seem to know what to do with him. I also had a much tighter supervision policy around one girl who was dangerous. At 4 years old she picked up an 18 month old and dropped her about 2m up off the play equipment in the park. Several of us had noticed she frequently seemed to play aggressively with younger children and her mother just didn't seem to notice or supervise her daughter. I didn't want to be the one who had to make the trip to A&E so no playing for DD with her. My DD is prone to amateur dramatics so I take a more proactive approach when we are around children I don't know, more for them as DD will accuse them of looking at her...heinous indeed!

I go to a baby group with my DD (6 months) and I don’t mind at all if another baby hits or scratches or climbs over, they’re just babies and don’t know any better. I have only been really angry once as there is a kid in the baby group who is easily coming up to 2 years who pushed my baby over and scratched her face. That got me mad because of the size difference and that the mum was too busy chatting away to be supervising her child and because they should be in the toddler group, not the baby group.

I feel like this illustrates the problem perfectly. I know that a nearly 2 year old seems huge and much more capable of control when you have a six month old, but a not yet two year old is also a baby who doesn't know any better in the grand scheme of things! I know it seems to you that they should be in the toddler bit but the baby bit is usually 'under twos' for a reason - the difference between a 20 month old and a four year old, and the potential for the former to be hurt by the latter, is a lot bigger than between a 20 month old and a six month old.

Also, if you don't want a six month old to get hurt just pop them on your lap - that's not an option that's open to the toddler's parent!

(Also, parents of babies often overestimate how old toddlers are. People quite often say that they think my 16 month old is nearly two because he's tall - once they're walking confidently it suddenly makes them seem not babies, but mentally they still are!)

if it became a regular thing I would pull them out of the setting because if they are unable to interact nicely they shouldn't be there.

I take it you didn't need to use nursery so you could work then!

I take it you didn't need to use nursery so you could work then!

All three of my children have attended nursery.

If one was being hurt and it wasn't being managed correctly or if one was being the aggressor and myself and the nursery were unable to find a way to stop my child persistently injuring another I would find a way to remove said child.

Maybe through trying to change my hours, or my husbands, or seeing if any of my family would be willing to baby sit or maybe trying to find a different setting where staff were more 'on the ball' about stopping injury

Of course he’s little but we still should teach them not too.

It’s the same when parents let babies slap and pull their hair. Of course they aren’t nasty but they still need to learn to be gentle!

A lot of parents don’t put their kids in the appropriate section in softplay to make it easier for them. At local soft plays I have seen toddlers through to 5 yos being forced by their mums to stay in the baby section because it’s closer to the coffee shop. These kids then get bored and take it out on the younger defenceless kids and because their mums are too busy doing something else there isn’t any real parental intervention either

I used to worry that I was lacking some essential maternal instinct, or didn’t love my children enough because I wouldn’t be “fuming” or “coming over all mama bear” when my children got bonked over the head, pushed or bitten at toddler group or nursery. I tend to think it helps them to learn resilience if you don’t make a big fuss over such things, even if you’re annoyed at the other parent for not supervising properly.

I also used to think “there but for the grace of God go I”, especially in retrospect as it turns out that DS has autism and ADHD, yet was never really aggressive when he was tiny (an escape-artist, banshee-shrieker and all-round chaos goblin, yes, but not a hitter/ pusher/ biter). Some of the loveliest, most conscientious parents have to deal with these issues in their own children.

But yeah, I have to agree about parents putting their babies on/ in play equipment aimed at older children, then being outraged if they get jostled or frightened. Yes, children need to learn to look out for little ones, but they also need (and deserve) space for more physical and active play without being barked at by daft people who think their PFB 9 month-old NEEDS to climb up the slide at snail’s pace.

I have recent experience of this with my best friends daughter, who is now 14 months. 2 months ago, my friend was called into the nursery her daughter goes 2 days per week. The teachers were complaining about the child being far too rough and biting, at the time she hadn't even had her 1st birthday, I was shocked. I mean, I've seen the behavior for myself and they'res certainly no malevolence involved (if toddlers are even capable of that), what she's actually doing is treating the other children as dollies and constantly trying to hug them, which she does very roughly. The biting is down to teething in my opinion. The thing is, my friend is very strict and when present, she immediately tells her DC "no" in a firm voice and pulls her away, but the teachers keep telling her that she is obviously not dealing with it properly and making my friend feel shit. I don't know what some people expect, they're too young for time out or anything so what else can you do?
We go to a playgroup and most of the parents are very understanding because one of us constantly hovers close to her to make sure she's not hurting anyone but sometimes these things happen so quickly and some of the parents are real twats about it. I mean, she's just a baby ffs.
It's funny, my son is 4 months older and he's the opposite, wouldn't say boo to a goose, kids are always pushing him around, I've never got angry.

I very much agree.

What annoys me at soft play are the older chn there with their little siblings not watching what they're doing, knocking toddlers flying. Those are the ones I get into agurments about!

I have often wondered if parenting classes would benefit new mothers in the same way antenatal classes are offered. I think a lot of over top reactions are just down to plain ignorance and not being informed as to how babies and toddlers develop their behaviour and understanding of the world. As a first time older mother, I admitted l barely knew a thing which is why I actively read up and researched the various stages of child development, so I would know roughly what to expect. My 19 month old was once called "rude" by a mother because my sociable little girl wanted to play with her much older son in the park. Reactions like this are quite shocking and upsetting for a first time mother. I can hardly believe my ears sometimes.

I think a lot of over top reactions are just down to plain ignorance and not being informed as to how babies and toddlers develop their behaviour and understanding of the world.

I think a lot of people have some instinct that I don't have (and like a pp I have wondered if that makes me a terrible mother!) where they have a very, very strong emotional reaction to their child getting at all hurt even in the mildest of ways. I sort of understand it with a baby but I don't understand how you keep it up when they're a toddler - DS is constantly falling and mildly bashing himself, it seems weird to treat it as a huge drama just because he was pushed rather than tumbling over on his own accord on this occasion!

Completely agree with you, too many parents forget that children haven't yet formed a moral code at 18months.

I certainly don't make a big fuss if my daughter falls over by accident or if another child has pushed her, but I am well aware other parents are often at the other end of the spectrum. I live in an area where there is a big European population and have noticed certainly in a playgroup setting, European mothers are far more relaxed and chilled when things go wrong than native Brits.

I had a parent shout at my then 2 year old so loudly the whole place went silent because he pushed their child. Then shouted at me because I wasn't keeping a close enough eye.

I wasn't keeping a close eye at that moment because my 4 year old was sobbing at the time. When I said he was only just 2 she was adamant I was lying and that he was at least 3.

It was her who was told off by the staff for how she spoke to me and my toddler.

European mothers are far more relaxed and chilled when things go wrong than native Brits

Tell that to the Polish mother sitting with her infant in the ball bit of all places and shouting loudly at any child who even came.close to the baby and the other small child she was with (who was crying anytime a puff of air came near him, poor kid). She ended up having the manager ask her not to keep shouting at 'll the children just trying to enjoy the ball pit that SHE was sat in the middle.of.

It depends. It should not be ignored.
When they get older it is a nightmare especially with the boys. DS is 4 he always gets a punch or kick in soft play off other boys.
I never had this issue with DD.
It gets tiring as he is big for his age it is usually an older boy hitting him.
I don't want to teach him he has to return a pinch.

European mothers are far more relaxed and chilled when things go wrong than native Brits
Generalising much, my polish friend goes crazy if her DD gets bumped.

It makes me cringe a bit when people write "European mothers/ parents/ families" do XYZ.

French? Italian? Greek? Or Dutch, Swiss, German? Or Polish, Hungarian, Bulgarian?
All totally different childrearing/ family cultures, some closer to British norms than to some of the other European countries listed...

British people usually seem to mean Mediterranean cultures when they say European, I'm not sure exactly which countries epitomise the MN European parenting architype, but it seems to be based on experience of holidays in Italy or perhaps the south of France...

Mind you none of my kids were ever punched or deliberately kicked at soft play and two are boys... Perhaps that's down to the culture of the non Mediterranean northern European country we live in... Children are as a general rule expected to be far more independent than in the UK, and older children's behaviour is generally very good in my experience (have teens and junior school child now) but under 3s are pretty much treated as babies... Expectations shift at 3 and transform at 6, when they're generally expected to take responsibility for their actions. There's a slightly unhelpful mix of laissez-faire and strictness/ punishment if they take advantage, I'm not generally a massive fan of the paradox but there's not much violence at soft play!