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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Don't know how to help my unhappy child

121 replies

Snugglemonster84 · 31/10/2019 08:18

My son is 9 and is unhappy. He has a wonderful life, a room full of toys, TV, xbox, clothes, food, a lovely warm home, a loving family, gets taken on lots of fun days out, holidays, been to disneyworld last year and going again next year. He has lots of friends. Goes to a nice school. Is idolised by grandparents. Is allowed to play out. He has good health. Goes to cubs. He's not naughty so is rarely told off for anything. I'm a sahm. His dad works hard to provide for us.
But he is still unhappy and also extremely ungrateful, and openly tells me so. He is so negative about everything. Like the typical Kevin teenager. Is this normal at age 9?
Any advice on how best to deal with it? He doesn't want to join in with family stuff anymore. He doesn't want to go out places or even see grandparents which he adored. He moans about absolutely everything unless we are doing something that he wants to do. He has no motivation for anything. Will not put any effort in to his school homework, reading, art projects etc. He's really clever so where he should be academically but he doesn't try so could be doing alot better.
Should I just leave him be, or speak to him about it? Should he be allowed to speak to us in such a negative manner or should he be punished? I feel so sad and I worry about him that he seems so sad about life when he has the perfect life! (I know the x box will be suggested as a problem, he has limited time on it at weekends only).
He has also had 6 weeks of counselling with a child therapist, who has worked with on things like not making mountains out of molehills etc but it's had no effect.

OP posts:
TrickOrTreaty · 02/11/2019 08:48

Agree with rvby 100%.

Snugglemonster84 · 02/11/2019 09:14

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I particularly like rvby's advice :
Setting a boundary" therefore MUST consist of calling out consequences, naming the emotional skills needed to behave differently, empathizing with a child who is out of their depth and learning, and also attempting to teach the concepts and skills needed to behave differently.
Im going to focus on this.

OP posts:
jackparlabane · 02/11/2019 09:39

I know it's a MN cliché, but I wonder if autism is a factor? It sounds like he isn't grasping wider context of ball games at school, and maybe not wanting to be in the room when others open presents is related to anxiety over surprises when things are unwrapped or others may have emotional responses. He's also at an age where friends start to play in more complex ways that he may be feeling excluded from if he doesn't 'get' what is happening.

Talking about emotions can help, but adults need to be careful that they don't dismiss the child by saying 'don't be silly, of course x wouldn't happen /likes you'. Teaching useful phrases to use in situations can help, along with figuring things out together. My son would evade household tasks until explained very bluntly that someone needs to buy toilet roll or we'll all be wiping our backsides on newspaper, and if I'm busy making a dinner he likes, then he should also do something so go to the corner shop and buy some. People think it's obvious that kids should help round the house, but it actually isn't - mine genuinely thought dad and I enjoyed housework. Ds is averse to touching anything damp so his chores focus on taking stuff up and down stairs - at this point I'm trying to get regular contribution.
I second the recommendation for The Explosive Child, whether ASD may be a factor or not.

BertieBotts · 02/11/2019 21:23

@rvby Thank you so much for your posts on this thread. I don't want to hijack from the OP but I've picked up a lot from it. Would you be willing to have another more general thread about boundaries and understanding their skills? How on earth did you discover this about your child at the age of 4 or 5? I think you are supermum. I feel awful that I'm only really seeing the full picture at 11. I hope it's not too late. The anxiety + perfectionism combination is exactly what the doctor said, last year, and threw me and DH off guard but then made us say you know what - that's exactly what it is. Why didn't we see it before?

I admit I don't really understand how to set boundaries. This is my biggest problem, I think. I managed to figure that one out when he was about 3-4 thanks to an incredible book called When Your Kids Push Your Buttons, but I've struggled to find good resources about how to do this which aren't just the state boundary -> give punishment model. It's easy when they are little and the boundary is for safety - once they get past that I just don't know how to do it. I used to take part in a lot of "gentle parenting" threads on here because the punitive method has always felt wrong to me but looking back I think I've really failed at what to replace it with which actually works to build skills, I've just sort of been waiting for the skills to develop on their own which of course now means we're struggling because they haven't.

I would love to do an OU course but I'm based outside the UK for now and I don't have €30k to do one. If you have any other book recommendations I would love to hear them. I am definitely going to read The Explosive Child and I will look into the Body Keeps the Score one.

Nettleskeins · 02/11/2019 21:59

I find RBVY 's posts horrifying tbh.

Her child is 7 and she has already been through hell to get him to do what she thinks is good for him and set boundaries.

there are many ways of teaching a child handwriting and other skills but continually forcing them to do things they hate and present it as loving attention.

I find it upsetting that so many parents here are entranced by her ideology. Forcing a child to do handwriting and sit at the table because it is good for them. It isn't if they are finding it so hard. Insisting they do homework because they have to. Why? Could there be another way to inculcate the same learning? More acceptable and more long lasting.

Set boundaries in a general way but it doesn't have to be about things the child detests just because they must. It is the worst sort of behavioural conditioning, do this because I love you. Sad

Read up about child development.

OP I think your child does get happiness from many things, but he is not playing the role of the happy child in the way you want him to. Keep listening to him, without getting so anxious that he is not doing what he should be. Stop expecting gratitude and thanks, show him you enjoy spending time with him, share things with him, funny jolly things. Have jokes. watch telly with him.

I think this sort of demanding behaviour is a kind of anxiety. And it can be linked with ASD. That sort of impatience and giving up so easily is a form of frustration, not being able to plan ahead or think things through clearly, except in a very fixed black and white way. My homework's no good, I don't like those people in my space, I hate writing letters. I think it is death by a 1000 cuts for the mother or father when you have to put up with this, but for him, each thing is perfectly sensible reaction at the time to an intolerable pressure. It isn't sensible to us, or intolerable either, but he is 9 and has a different threshold.

I recommend How To Talk So Kids will Listen and Listen So Kids will Talk. stop blaming yourself for his bad behaviour, and start observing it as an onlooker. If he was a wild panther and you wanted to win him over, you would have to play by his instincts not yours. That doesn't mean you pander to him, more that you think of things from his viewpoint as a child, not from the view point of what a rational grownup would do and wants from the world, societal expectations etc.

Nettleskeins · 02/11/2019 22:04

Also a lot of negative back chat can be defused with jokes. The worse thing you can do is escalate it with How dare you be so rude. I used to make myself the butt of a lots of jokes (pretend to be characters from High School Musical for example) so that the kids got more used to the idea that we could be polite and rude at the same time, rather than actually rude and offensive. Model kind teasing rather than aggressive comments and complaints.

Nettleskeins · 02/11/2019 22:12

If you look closely at rbv's post she has taught her child:

iceskating
piano
music theory
ski ing
swimming
handwriting
homework

and all these skills have been "agony" for them both. I cannot remember making my children doing anything they weren't genuinely interested in doing. Yes they made mistakes, yes sometimes there were a few blips. Dd used to tear up her colouring when she was frustrated (I stopped doing colouring with her, and we did dancing instead -leaving colouring for school time) And they have turned out just fine. One of my children has ASD. He couldn't do handwriting or spelling. The idea that I would force him to slog through these things against his will so he learnt from his mistakes. Madness. We did other things we read to him, we enjoyed history and art and drama and music without forcing him to do stuff he couldn't do. He is doing A levels now and got Ace gsces despite his dyslexia. He couldn't play football till he was 9/10. We left it till he began to enjoy it not scream and shout during every game through fear and frustration. He is now an ardent football supporter and goes to every match by himself on the bus (with friends too)

Interestedwoman · 02/11/2019 22:22

'Thanks for the further comments. In answer to a previous poster, he has been through cahms and discharged by them. They were the ones that referred him to therapy for anxiety.'

6 weeks is not very long for therapy. Please go back to your GP/CAMHS and say he's still struggling, so they can try something else. The earlier it's nipped in the bud, the less it'll effect him in later life. Keep nagging them until they listen to you and something works. You could also get him private therapy if possible. 6 weeks mightn't have helped, but that's not really surprising to me. :)

Nettleskeins · 02/11/2019 22:27

you don't have to like it - said with compassion. Is it just me or does that make you feel urrgh?
Naming bad feelings all the time too. Why would you need to? What about redirecting to good feelings, not feelgood feelings but genuinely good feelings.

Child refuses mashed potato. I can see you are hating that mashed potato. I love you and I know you are going to endure eating that mashed potato because together we are going to get through it.

Instead of. Aah, I see this is monsieur's least favourite meal. Perhaps we would have been better with some slime or some...worm pie...(a great favourite in our house it has to be said) (quietly removes mash, offers quick subsitute of bread and butter and remind self to never serve it again substitutes next meal with equally nutritious potato wedges.

FGS.

rvby · 02/11/2019 22:29

Yeah, I am no expert, Bertie if you want to read "The Whole Brain Child" and make your own mind up, that might be the one other book I would recommend.

I will say that I noticed the issues my DS was having at age 4/5 in part because that's when I and my sister developed the same issues. My exdh, similar at same age. I myself have been in therapy, and studied child development over the last few years as part of a professional qualification, so I followed the latest bits and pieces to cobble together something that works for my DS. It won't work for everyone.

The previous poster disagrees with me and I can see embedded her in words the idea that "if you just leave them to it, they will get it right". That was once the received wisdom, I totally get that, my own mum followed that approach, very much gentle parenting stuff. It works for many children I'm sure. There was a developmental psychologist called Piaget whose work was seminal and influenced a lot of pop parenting approaches, however if you look under the hood it's a bit scary how little of it makes any sense... he was very much "just leave them to it!" but research has shown that's not actually good for all kids.

Personally I am more on the Vygotsky side, with the zone of promixal development being the key concept that helps children learn at a pace that keeps them challenged and builds their confidence. You need an adult who loves the child and understands what they need to learn and will be their coach and mentor, and that is what gets them through and helps them learn how to learn. They break down the skill into tiny chunks and calmly and lovingly help the child build on each little chunk, gaining confidence as they go.

@Nettleskeins I can understand how my posts might horrify you - it does sound intense. In practice, it's not. The skill that was agony was handwriting - the rest have been sometimes frustrating but 90% rewarding, high-five moments. But they took work and there were tears along the way.

For example, the handwriting - I had to take control of that because I found out that his teacher had not required him to write anything for a year, and his fine motor had regressed about 2 years back to where it had been when he was 4 ish. He struggled to hold a pencil and had lost confidence at school ("I can't do the work anymore").

It was scary and intervention was necessary. Took 2 months of daily practice - and yes he hated it - and he is now back at grade level - and now we no longer practice handwriting daily. I tackled that skill only, for that 2 month period because I know that without it, he would lose more and more confidence at school. We went from "I hate school" to "school is so easy now!" after that 2 month period.

I do the same with other skills. I only tackle things that are easiest to learn at very early ages - e.g. swimming. Again, he learned ONLY to swim for a year - no other sports. And then ONLY to ski for three months. (We live in a country where skiing and skating are foundational skills for enjoyment of life - we are not in UK - without those skills you don't really go outside for 70% of the year).

His time is completely unstructured outside of the one skill we learn at a time. He isn't hot housed, despite how it may sound.

I'll take your point on music theory. He doesn't like doing it because his ear is excellent and he has got along without reading for a few years now (dad is a music teacher so he is exposed to it all)... however... if I try to tell him to stop working at it, he tells me that he will never give up, even if I do (eeeek). He will sit at the piano and cry with frustration until I come back to assist him / scaffold the next thing. When he gets it right, he absolutely BEAMS with joy and his day is made. That's all him - I just try to support him.

BetweenTheMoon · 02/11/2019 22:36

OP to me it seems you kind of outsource the suggestions people are making. Getting him out in the forest, den building etc would be ace to do with you, not cubs. All the sports he does too means when is he spending time with you?

Toddlers play up and act out when they feel disconnected from their parents. I doubt that changes much as they get older. How much real, quality, fun time do you spend with him?

Nettleskeins · 02/11/2019 22:48

I think children do thrive on attention Rbv and "leaving them to it" isn't an ideal method, I agree there. I suppose I was just questioning the idea that skills need to be taught so explicitly when those skills are not what I think of as foundation skills. Whereas running dressing selfcare washing pushing pulling jumping singing playacting sliding and fine motor skills (in whatever form, dressing bears, painting, fuzzy felt, lego) are foundation skills that children need very little persuasion to engage in.

rvby · 02/11/2019 22:57

Totally get it Nettles.

I may not have been clear about the scope of the approach I talk about above... I use this support style ONLY for things that my DS wants or "needs" (culturally) to learn, but that his perfectionism scares him off of trying. That list of skills is pretty small at the moment.

As he grows, I don't doubt he will come up with more and more skills to learn, and the hope is that this early "learning to learn" bit will make that easier for him. For kids who are not anxious perfectionists, and espeically if they are not NT, I'm sure my approach would be ridiculous and pointless.

Also, bearing in mind we aren't in UK, "foundational skills" are a bit culturally driven. I agree with your list and my DS had zero issue with any of those, he has always been self motivated when the skill was easy to learn. It's the more complex ones that he now shows interest in, and he is actually an amazing fast learner objectively speaking, but Christ alive, the self loathing he goes through when he doesn't instantly get it right, it's heart breaking.

That's where I intervene and coach, because I want him to become comfortable and, frankly, go through a bit of exposure therapy for how it feels to learn from the ground up, if that makes sense. It does absolutely suck when you are a perfectionist.

Source: Me at the same age, who gave up lovely ballet because she got a B on her report and couldn't stop crying for a week :( and never learned to do a cartwheel, roller skate, etc. etc. because I was mortified of not being good at it... Sad

BertieBotts · 02/11/2019 23:08

I know exactly what you mean, Rvby, because we have had such similar experiences. Just coaching him through the process of things like doing (each kind of) homework, or packing his bag for school, or cleaning his bedroom, simple things, have been like - I don't want to say pulling teeth because it hasn't been like that, although it's the first expression which comes to mind. More like building a house of cards. Very frustrating, extremely demanding of patience, can be destroyed with a wrong breath. And yes the click moment when he gets it is amazing, but he wouldn't have got there alone - I really believe that, because he just shuts down when he encounters anything he believes is "too hard".

I do think most children WILL work things out when left to it, or shown a good example. And DS1 has with some things - reading for example, his second laguage, maths, anything academic comes really easily to him like that. But some of them don't, some of them do need more help. When I did TEFL training, there was another student on the course who was dyslexic, and for I think five of the six required teaching practices, the tutors had really scaffolded him and given him lots of support in planning lessons. They then let him plan the last lesson totally by himself and he fell apart. They were surprised, he was devastated. He told me it had happened to him again and again in education and it was always his experience and teachers never got it. I sympathised with the tutors (they can't be an expert in everything!) but I promised him that I would be different as a teacher, and I have never ever forgotten it. I always try to meet the (child/pupil/person) where they are. It's been my downfall in certain personal situations but it works beautifully in teaching and parenting!

I do wonder if the not "just picking it up" is related to neurodiversity - DS1 is diagnosed ADHD - non hyperactive. So am I (this was a surprise, mine came first, I pushed for his assessment because nobody else, except the actual ADHD specialists, have thought it remotely likely for him) and I've read extensively since my own diagnosis, so I know exactly which skills he's lacking, it's the executive function ones. Main problem is I struggle with them as well so it's hard to teach him from the ground up. I'm going in with my coping mechanisms and DH (who is like executive function personified) is like "WTF are you starting there for?" There is so little actual practical information around for laypeople/parents that I can find, though, and DH doesn't really know how to explain how to do something that comes naturally to him. And because of my own issues I hugely struggle with consistency and follow through but I am doing the best I can right now.

I will look at the Whole Brain Child. Thank you :)

rvby · 02/11/2019 23:12

Bertie I pm'ed you... I have ADHD inattentive (diagnosed by psychologist not psychiatrist though).. my DS has definite attention challenges, very similar flavour to mine, possibly not clinical level but they are there, I simply work with them as I completely get it and can work with it. It's all part of the mix I find. We may be in the same boat xx

EducatingArti · 02/11/2019 23:18

Op, quite a get of the things you say about your son are similar to characteristics of some students I have worked with who have autism. Would this be worth looking into?

BertieBotts · 02/11/2019 23:22

Thanks Rvby x

TheBlessedCheesemaker · 03/11/2019 06:31

OP, lots of conflicting advice. FWIW I agree with rvby 100% in terms of my DC with Aspergers and OCD, but that approach would be rubbish for my NT DC, and I can see why those with NT DC only are reacting negatively to the advice.
Whole brain child a good book as a starting point, by the way.
I also disagree with treating siblings exactly the same. Horses for courses - work with what you are presented with rather then trying to push square kids through round holes.

Sorrybutyourewrong · 03/11/2019 11:34

OP I feel for you and your son, with his sadness. The sadness is the biggest part of it. Would it help to separate that out from the other problems he’s having? I know the other problems do contribute to it but it’s seems like something in its own right as well . At some level your 9 year olds angry frustration and upset with tasks sounds par for the course at that age. It’s hard to see and deal with but I have found myself with mine thinking ‘oh fgs why are you acting so childishly?’ ‘Oh yes because you’re a child’... I do think that most will grow out of this tantum stuff with just regular instinctive common sense type support and kindness.
The bad behaviour he shows at times I still maintain needs brisk tellings off. Yes, I think call it naughty. Yes, I think it’s ok to say, stop giving cheek, stop complaining, don’t answer back, because I said so, that is very disobedient, type stuff without making a major psychological thing out of it. Not all the time, often they get away with it! It would be a miserable house where every childish slip was pulled up. But enough for the message to get through. And I think the naming/ telling off/ pointed look usually is the punishment, it really doesn’t usually have to be full Armageddon if you do this then this will happen sanctions type stuff.
His sadness I think is different, that is the really hard part. Anhedonia is the clinical name for being unable to take pleasure In things that you usually would. Although that suggests more of a change from a previously happy personality. I think you’ve been doing everything right in a lot of senses. Outdoors, sports, Cubs, walking the dog in the woods with family. Then the Camhs referral. I have a few thoughts/ suggestions. Is he introverted/extroverted? Does he get enough time alone at home to chill, look at the fire, gaze at the walls and think his own thoughts, reflect, process? My ds needs a lot of this, he is quite thoughtful. Lots of people and clubs and being out and about can be vary draining to some personality types. Also, I think he could be at an age where he needs more stimulus than doing the rounds of local days out, playgrounds. I felt like just as we’d got the weekend routine sorted they outgrew it. It’s difficult when sibling is 7. But again I still think that reading and movies provides so much mental stimulus, gets their imagination going, exposes you to so much more. Mine read constantly, through meals, when their lights are meant to be out, it’s so good for them, for their imaginations and actually we’ve never had to worry about spelling/English type homework as it helps with that automatically. Does he read, does he see you and dh read? It would encourage him although it’s hard to find time when you’re not actually a kid! And movies together as a family with popcorn etc. It’s just loads of fun, more fun for them than being sat with siblings watching a cartoon movie while the grownups do the dishes.
With his afterschool sports stuff, is that a childcare thing, could you pull him out of some of it? Might he be happier having more time at home, getting in, eating something, playing, getting an earlier start on the homework? Could you or dh be available for afterschool at home? It sounds like he’s fairly active anyway with the dog, Cubs, playing out, so perhaps he has enough activity.
The thing you said about the counsellor concluding that his happy self when out with freinds is just a mask... really? My moany dd does similar, I get all the woes then off she skips, literally. I let her vent but try not to sort of initiate searching for complaints, and try not to let it be a thing that gets her extra time with me, special time off school etc. I try not to give it too much attention for fear of reinforcing it. But that is dealing with much lesser complaints, your sons sadness is much more serious.
Re the suggestions on learning how to learn new skills etc. I find that learning new stuff all together is good. Especially if I’m worse at it than the kids. We had a family archery lesson and loved it. We all go out on bikes or on hikes and the kids offer to help me with cliff-y bits as I am scaredy cat, I think they feel good when that happens! Might help to look at all trying something new together rather than we drive you to the lesson and wait while you do it type stuff? So they get to see how you manage to try new things, hard things?

Autumnleaveswhenthegrassisjewelled · 27/11/2024 22:24

Place marking for information :)

mimblewimble · 27/11/2024 22:59

He sounds a bit like my now 13yo ds. Who is autistic and has ADHD. He can be very negative, perfectionist, anxious, gets frustrated easily and struggles to regulate his emotions.

I think you probably know whether your ds is spoilt or whether there is something else going on e.g. around his mental health.

You have been given some conflicting advice here, and you'll know in your gut which sort of approach will work.

My advice, for what it's worth, is not to ever follow someone else's advice about parenting your child just because you feel guilty or that something is expected of you. You know him best.

The Explosive Child book is genuinely really helpful though.

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