To recommend sleep training to a friend?

[Pretendbookworm]

I have a LB who is 3.5 (who I will call E) and my friend has LB who is 2.5 (I will call C).

So my friend messaged me to say that her boy C was awake between midnight-4 because he wouldn’t sleep. She had spent the entire time holding him in every position possible but he wouldn’t settle and wasn’t happy to be put down and she was tired. She’s due to have a baby soon.

So I said well sounds like it’s time to start sleep training, at some point you’ve got to say it’s time for bed and not hold them all night because at some point its like any other defiant behaviour or tantrum and even at that age they can try to take the mick. I said that for example my boy E wanted me to stay in his bed all night but after some cuddles I said no and we kept going in to repeat time for bed. She said “sleep training is not for us but each to their own.”

I said “sleep training gets a bad rap because people do it with little babies but at some point everyone has to start being firmer, sometimes it’s like any other tantrum”. I also said well everyone does draw the line somewhere at some point. Then she said “I am not a pushover but I will not do sleep training. I won’t do it.”

Then (it’s a group chat) another friend joins in saying that toddlers aren’t robots and need cuddles sometimes and they won’t do it either. I said that I do cuddle him but the difference is I don’t stay in the room for long.

I think they’ve got no understanding of what sleep training is and have completely dismissed me with prejudice. I only persisted because I feel that as soon as I said sleep training she stopped listening to what is generally regarded as common sense advice for getting toddlers/pre schoolers to sleep.

I’m horrified with how this conversation has gone. I only persisted as I feel I was dismissed abruptly and unfairly. AIBU?

I have no sympathy for people who complain “oh my 3year old still wakes 16 times a night” or “I have to sit next to my 2 year old for an hour while she drifts off to sleep”.
Like potty training or talking or writing- sleeping needs to be taught, why people are so against this concept is beyond me! Leave them with their stupidity

You can only offer advice, up to her to accept or follow it.
That said, she’s made her own bed with not having a firm bedtime routine (which is basically what sleep training is).

Like potty training or talking or writing- sleeping needs to be taught, why people are so against this concept is beyond me! Leave them with their stupidity

And there are countless methods to teach all of the above, not one “correct” method.

Perhaps you said a little more than was necessary but if they are friends and you genuinely think something could help them then you weren’t being obtuse in saying “jo really, why not give XYZ a chance”
It sounds like they are dismissive of it without really understanding the ins and outs.
Oh well, when their child is 9 and she’s still having to hold their hand or lay on their bed to get them to sleep every night (NOT OCCASIONALLY- as all kids need this sometimes) she might regret being so dismissive

YABU for saying

because at some point its like any other defiant behaviour or tantrum and even at that age they can try to take the mick.

about a 2 year old, who is presumably exhausted by midnight. Your friends 2 year old (or any other 2 year old) is NOT being manipulative or defiant by not sleeping, what a horrible thing to say!

I don't agree with sleep training, and would suggest to your friend she reads "the gentle sleep book" by Sarah ockwell-smith. It might give her some ideas for changes she can make to her bed time routine and sleep environment, without having to ignore her childs needs.

And there are countless methods to teach all of the above, not one “correct” method however you wish to train surely all require a parent to leave their child.
Babies and toddlers aren’t manipulative but equally they aren’t always in need- mostly they are resisting change

Babies and toddlers aren’t manipulative but equally they aren’t always in need- mostly they are resisting change

Are you for real 🙄
Of course babies and toddlers are "in need" they "need" adults for every basic thing in their lives FFS

That said, she’s made her own bed with not having a firm bedtime routine (which is basically what sleep training is).

For us the beginning of the night wasn't the issue, she would go to sleep in her cot - it unravelled after that. She also wouldn't sleep in the cot in the day.

however you wish to train surely all require a parent to leave their child

I never “trained”. I waited until she was happy to be left and followed her lead. It was all her natural development and being ready to attempt sleep alone rather than forcing it by leaving her before she was ready.

Like pp said, I think you meant well, but there's a point where I would stop trying to tell my best friend or closest family how to parent their child even if I am convinced it would make their lives better/easier/happier. In my opinion you went beyond that point.

On the sleep training - we tried it all. It didn't work for our oldest. Started sleep training when he was six months old. If he didn't projectile vomit in his distress, he'd scream until he collapsed, as soon as he had recovered, he'd start screaming again. For hours.

Our paediatrician very kindly explained to us that despite the popularity of sleep training (which is often, like you did in your post OP, framed as parents being firmer and asserting control over bad behaviour) it is not suitable for all children and that it wasn't suitable for ours.

We found when he was around 4 that the only method that worked was a very gradual withdrawal with his agreement every step of the way. We worked out different techniques of settling our next, who was a good sleeper. Our third was a terrible sleeper like the first but we had the necessary experience by then on how not to worsen the problem (by that much vaunted common sense approach) and used another very gentle technique which yielded good results by around 12 months.

None of them got sleep trained in the sense that you and many others here seem to view it. All of our children had a fixed bedtime routine from about 6 months and a nap schedule soon after.

If anyone had suggested sleep training my next one, I'd have point blank refused, too. Because what's commonly referred to as sleep training made things worse for us. Everything I've read about sleep training, as it is commonly understood, focuses on fast results, persisting even if they don't like it etc. It works for many families. It doesn't work for others.

And that's why I think YABU. Your method worked for you - great. Offering advice without being asked for it - borderline, maybe reasonable depending on your relationship. Persisting after a live and let live hint - unreasonable. Getting frustrated and angry because your friends just will not listen - very unreasonable.

Of course babies and toddlers are "in need" they "need" adults for every basic thing in their lives FFS in the context of bedtime ffs!
If a 1yr old/2yr old isn’t thirsty hungry wet teething or ill they don’t NEED their parent to stay in their room until they fall asleep. It’s not healthy for a child who should be asleep at 7pm be wake until 9pm because they can’t get to sleep without their mum and then to wake repeatedly in the night. I think that’s far more damaging than a couple of nights of crying!

i waited until she was happy to be left and followed her lead did you so the same with potty training? How about learning to read and write, is school forcing this too early, should you wait for you child to ask to learn? Do you let them decide whether to eat a home cooked meal or McDonald’s every night?

did you so the same with potty training?

Yup

How about learning to read and write, is school forcing this too early, should you wait for you child to ask to learn?

She did ask to learn. She could read and write before she started school.

Do you let them decide whether to eat a home cooked meal or McDonald’s every night?

We meal plan together every week.

You shouldn't have pushed it. Not because I think your opinion was wrong (I somewhat agree with you in fact) but because the type of person who is pregnant and still holds their 2.5 year old for hours on end to try to get them to sleep, is NEVER going to be suseptible to advice on sleep training.

They're a type. My sister is one and she's on her knees with exhaustion while her now almost four year old runs riot at bed time and has never slept a night in her own bed. My sister has two babies to deal with on top of this and has simply given up trying to enforce it as she doesn't have the energy. It's really done her eldest a disservice and I worry about how the dire sleeping patterns will affect her when she starts school.

It's the term "sleep training" that gets people's backs up as they picture sobbing infants left to their own devices. I'd phrase it different in the future: "getting them into a good routine" "encouraging healthy sleep habits" or some such.

If a 1yr old/2yr old isn’t thirsty hungry wet teething or ill they don’t NEED their parent to stay in their room until they fall asleep. It’s not healthy for a child who should be asleep at 7pm be wake until 9pm because they can’t get to sleep without their mum and then to wake repeatedly in the night. I think that’s far more damaging than a couple of nights of crying!

Oh dear Lord - how many children have you actually looked after?

Over 30 years qualified childcare experience here caring for other people's children and my own.

Firstly there are no hard and fast rules for how much sleep children need and secondly leaving children to cry themselves to sleep - do some research FFS.

There are many reasons children might need a carer to be in the room or nearby when they are going to sleep e.g. chronic health issues - night terrors - separation anxiety - family circumstances (divorce, bereavement etc.) the list goes on and on and I can't believe I'm bothering to justify it at all tbh.

This thread contains many sleep training parents masking their guilt with superiority and self-validation. Some of the comments are extremely judgemental towards attachment parenting. Why would you need to be so critical unless you felt guilty, unsure or insecure about your own choices?
I never sleep trained my two high needs DC and they sleep amazingly now (with me and DH when they still need it, and that’s fine!). They are happy, confident and securely attached. I’m from an ethnic minority and it isn’t about a parenting style, sleep training is completely unheard of in my culture. Everyone co-sleeps.

I never trained. I left my eldest in her room once she was comfortable with me leaving her (around 3.5 years old). I'm straight in when she needs me. Usually in my bed 6am ish for a cuddle. She is 6 now, goes to bed no issues and reads in her room until she turns her lights out. Ages of 2-4 had horrendous night terrors and sleepwalking and slept in my bed frequently.

My son is 4 and we still sit with him until he is asleep because that's what he needs. He wakes in the night scared of being alone and ends up in my bed/mattress on floor in my room. Again, it's tiring but it's fine. He's little and it's what he needs. If he's still crawling into my room at 18 I'll have a word with him. Would rather my kids knew that I'm always there- day or night in whatever way they need than brush is as 'training'.

I don’t think you were wrong to suggest it but I think with any advice about parenting if someone says no thank you then you don’t push the point.
I do agree with you about the sleep training; I’ve had conversations with my sister where she’s moaned about her childs sleep and I’ve told her what we did (no cry gradual retreat sleep training) and she’s been firm that she doesn’t want to sleep train so I back off even though I think what we did was a very gentle version and not a cry it out method

Why would children need to be taught how to sleep, sleeping isn't a behaviour, it's a biological response. Everybody sleeps. If you didn't you'd die. When your body is both tired and relaxed, both physically and mentally at the same time, you'll sleep. That's how it works. Doesn't matter how old you are. Or if you can't relax eventually you will become exhausted and that sort of bypasses the relaxation part - which is obviously less ideal. Although ironically how some kinds of sleep training work.

What people mean is that children "need" to be taught how to lie quietly without company before they go to sleep, which when you phrase it like that is quite clear it is utter bollocks. Of course it might be very convenient if they do this, it may also turn out to be the most relaxing thing for a child, and if you would like to teach/train/gently encourage it for one of those reasons, then absolutely go ahead, but to insist that all children MUST be taught it, that they won't pick it up naturally by themselves ever, that having somebody stay with them is somehow wrong, or that not doing so (by insert age here) is harmful, is bollocks. And judgy.

Thing is that all kids are different. My DD was an absolute nightmare for sleeping. We tried controlled crying. People said it took a week. It took us 6 weeks and was very distressing and tiring for all of us. It worked for a few months and then we went away for a few days and the routine was broken and we were back to square one. She eventually slept through age 6. Ds didn't require any sleep training. But i did have both of them waking for about 6 months.

The issues I have is parents who are vehemently against sleep training who complain that their child doesn’t automatically put themselves to sleep. If you are happy waking up 3 times a night and are happy to continue doing so until your child grows out of it that’s up to you, don’t complain.

Also I truly believe uninterrupted sleep is pivotal to a healthy child. I think it’s a parents job to instil good habits. I wouldn’t leave a tiny baby to cry it out, I wouldn’t leave a child who was in actual distress or who had additional needs but I think in some instances it’s lazy parenting.

The issues I have is parents who are vehemently against sleep training who complain that their child doesn’t automatically put themselves to sleep. If you are happy waking up 3 times a night and are happy to continue doing so until your child grows out of it that’s up to you, don’t complain.

I agree

I hate this idea that if you don't adhere to someone else's way of parenting, but are having a bit of a shit time or are tired, you are not allowed to complain, moan or vent to your friends.....fuck that for a friendship.

YABU... I would have not been as polite after you ignored my first no. I would never sleep train and would shut down anyone that didn't accept this. You should have left it.

Absolutely hazeyjane!

It smacks of the utmost arrogance assuming your way of parenting is the correct way.

My way of parenting was right only for my family, it would be stupid of me to try and push that onto other people.

but are having a bit of a shit time or are tired, you are not allowed to complain, moan or vent to your friends

Y’know, actions, consequences.

Sleep training isn’t fun or easy for people and it’s generally not undertaken lightly. You can’t expect the benefits if you won’t even countenance the action.

But absolutely your choice to take or not take whatever action you want. Knock yourself out.