To recommend sleep training to a friend?

[Pretendbookworm]

I have a LB who is 3.5 (who I will call E) and my friend has LB who is 2.5 (I will call C).

So my friend messaged me to say that her boy C was awake between midnight-4 because he wouldn’t sleep. She had spent the entire time holding him in every position possible but he wouldn’t settle and wasn’t happy to be put down and she was tired. She’s due to have a baby soon.

So I said well sounds like it’s time to start sleep training, at some point you’ve got to say it’s time for bed and not hold them all night because at some point its like any other defiant behaviour or tantrum and even at that age they can try to take the mick. I said that for example my boy E wanted me to stay in his bed all night but after some cuddles I said no and we kept going in to repeat time for bed. She said “sleep training is not for us but each to their own.”

I said “sleep training gets a bad rap because people do it with little babies but at some point everyone has to start being firmer, sometimes it’s like any other tantrum”. I also said well everyone does draw the line somewhere at some point. Then she said “I am not a pushover but I will not do sleep training. I won’t do it.”

Then (it’s a group chat) another friend joins in saying that toddlers aren’t robots and need cuddles sometimes and they won’t do it either. I said that I do cuddle him but the difference is I don’t stay in the room for long.

I think they’ve got no understanding of what sleep training is and have completely dismissed me with prejudice. I only persisted because I feel that as soon as I said sleep training she stopped listening to what is generally regarded as common sense advice for getting toddlers/pre schoolers to sleep.

I’m horrified with how this conversation has gone. I only persisted as I feel I was dismissed abruptly and unfairly. AIBU?

Yanbu.

Leave her to it.
If she wants to have night after night of shit sleep, then let her crack on.
More fool her.

Her problem to solve really. When the second child is here she'll realise that sometimes she can't help two kids at the same time, one will have to wait and that's ok.

I think YABU and you got defensive because you took it personally that you sleep trained and they didn't. You wanted to validate your own choices for training your child which many people refuse to do as they see it as cruel

which many people refuse to do as they see it as cruel

Do these many ppl understand there are a myriad of approaches to sleep training or do they stupidly all assume that the OP is advocating cry it out?

I really think people hear "sleep training" and think that it means shutting the door on your child until morning and completely ignoring them.

It really isn't that at all. It's a whole spectrum. Some sleep training doesn't involve leaving your child at all.

My DSIS has to stay with her six year old because he won't go to sleep on his own. This would be fine if he was down quickly but it takes him up to 2 hours to go to sleep every night, he pisses around and won't settle. She complains about it constantly, says it's ruining her relationship etc.

Will she even contemplate some gentle sleep training? Will she fuck. Her head is full of attachment parenting, never mind the fact that 9 times out of 10 she ends up shouting at him nightly because he won't go to sleep and she never gets an evening off.

My sympathy is limited. What can you do. She says "adults don't sleep alone so why should we expect children to". To which I say - actually, I DO sleep alone. I hate sharing a bed and I always have. To my mind, I pay so much attention to teaching my son good and healthy habits in his eating etc, why would I not also invest time in helping him to develop good sleeping habits? Doesn't make sense to me, but whatever.

I sleep training is a lifesaver for some being up half the night with toddlers is torture that we don't have to endure yet some parents see it as abandoning or damaging to children not sleeping is detrimental to their health and will affect behaviourv.

My sympathy is limited. What can you do.

I'm inclined to agree. It's all very well saying 'oh she just wants to vent' but really, when a situation becomes untenable, yet they refuse to do anything to change it, then I don't feel any sympathy at all really.

I'd just leave them to it and refuse to discuss it.

Yabu to insist after she politely said no. But I get your frustration - friend with dc the same age as mine who in sleep and in a few other areas of life just, imo, needs to be told no. It’s affecting her sleep, health, marriage, everything, but she can’t or won’t do anything about it, and I won’t say anything unless asked (and even then I can hardly say what I really think).

@LaurieMarlow I know that sleep training doesn't just mean cry it out. But that's what many people envisage. I've yet to see any method that doesn't involve some discomfort / distress / tears. Ultimately the baby has a distinct way of falling asleep and changing that without a single tear or protest is impossible. If a baby is rocked to sleep to fed to sleep, even just laying down beside them and holding them in bed they are likely to protest because they're not being put to sleep in the way they like or know.

It's not always what you say but how you say it. You pretty much said she has brought this on herself and probably, especially to a shattered pregnant mum, came across judgy. The fact someone else comment could highlight this.

Generally i go with sympathy and what have they tried. Usually I've found they have tried some form of sleep training and routines, they just don't call it sleep training. Which is also why some people get pissed off with others throwing out the broad term sleep training, they've already tried some things which still won't work for them. To then have it banged on about feels like you are doing it more wrong.

We used gradual retreat, it was the only one that worked with our dc. But that's again not always the same for every dc in the same family.

I've yet to see any method that doesn't involve some discomfort / distress / tears.

I suggest you go and read up on some gentler techniques then, of which there are many.

Reverse

@LaurieMarlow I've read nearly every technique and paid for 2 sleep consultants. I had a child who insisted on being held upright in a very specific hold to fall asleep. We very slowly transitioned to allowing them to fall asleep laying down. However even just holding my baby with my arms in a different position would have her protest and fidget and cry. We still did a very nice very very slow approach and baby now falls asleep on her own in her cot with me in the room. But even with the most patient technique we had a few strops and tears

You really do need to learn when to shut up. She told you nicely and politely it wasn't for her, but you just had to keep pushing. When you carried on you sounded like a smug know it all. I think her responses were very polite and measured

I think reverse too.

In case it's not: YABU. Everyone parents differently and you pushed your own opinion long after it was appropriate

YABU.

YWNBU to suggest sleep training. However the point where she said “sleep training is not for us but each to their own.” was the point you should have stopped.

You were rather belligerent with unsolicited advice.

But even with the most patient technique we had a few strops and tears

But do we really expect, as our babies learn, develop, adjust to different things, to eliminate all discomfort? It’s unrealistic.

My baby needs to learn not to touch a hot oven, run across the road, snatch things from other babies. There will be discomfort involved as they want to do those things. But they are important lessons. Same with sleep.

Some discomfort is not cruel, it’s just life.

No wonder the OP was shut down. Opinionated and obnoxious to call poor sleepers 'defiant' and having a 'tantrum'. I've no doubt she came across as smug and knowing it all, and nothing annoys people more than being talked down to.

The 'friend' isn't stupid and knows the situation isn't ideal, but has no doubt looked at ways (and will continue to do so) of improving things for herself and her child.

Children don't come off a production line and respond to the same treatment in the same way. Parenting styles are different for everyone.

I nightweaned (at 3) using Jay Gordon (considered gentle technique) It was absolutely brutal, she objected to everything. She was having none of it, just screamed.

So yes lots of tears with gentle techniques here.

I also think reverse, but it not then obviously you're being unreasonable.

She was venting as a friend, graciously said "to each their own" which was an extremely clear indicator that she didn't want you to press the issue and that it was time to change the topic. You didn't because for some reason you either feel that your way is the superior way or that you somehow know her child better than she does.

Anyway, at least you note know a topic not to talk about with your friend.

YABU, people who think sleep training is the answer to everything usually have never experienced a high needs baby who will not be put down. Some babies/toddlers can be left with a bit of 'settling', others scream the house down until they're sick.

I think you're being unreasonable for pushing your viewpoint. She was very polite when she told you it's not for her.

You should have just left it when she said she wasn’t interested. To keep pushing was rude.

Tears are a normal form of communication, though, especially for pre-verbal kids. It's all they have. There will come a time when your kid will scream for 30 mins because they didn't want to leave the playground, but you don't worry about it then! Obviously there are varying levels, but a bit of crying is normal when something is changing or they are learning a new skill and it's frustrating them. If they had words and the ability to articulate, they'd probably use those instead.

That said, the op was BU IMO to keep going when the friend said she didn't want to do it. But it is a bit annoying when people are full of complaints about something but won't actually investigate doing anything about it. But I just take a deep breath and remind myself that it's not my circus, not my monkeys, and I'm not the one who is horribly sleep deprived. Just make sympathetic noises and thank your lucky stars it isn't you!