To recommend sleep training to a friend?

[Pretendbookworm]

I have a LB who is 3.5 (who I will call E) and my friend has LB who is 2.5 (I will call C).

So my friend messaged me to say that her boy C was awake between midnight-4 because he wouldn’t sleep. She had spent the entire time holding him in every position possible but he wouldn’t settle and wasn’t happy to be put down and she was tired. She’s due to have a baby soon.

So I said well sounds like it’s time to start sleep training, at some point you’ve got to say it’s time for bed and not hold them all night because at some point its like any other defiant behaviour or tantrum and even at that age they can try to take the mick. I said that for example my boy E wanted me to stay in his bed all night but after some cuddles I said no and we kept going in to repeat time for bed. She said “sleep training is not for us but each to their own.”

I said “sleep training gets a bad rap because people do it with little babies but at some point everyone has to start being firmer, sometimes it’s like any other tantrum”. I also said well everyone does draw the line somewhere at some point. Then she said “I am not a pushover but I will not do sleep training. I won’t do it.”

Then (it’s a group chat) another friend joins in saying that toddlers aren’t robots and need cuddles sometimes and they won’t do it either. I said that I do cuddle him but the difference is I don’t stay in the room for long.

I think they’ve got no understanding of what sleep training is and have completely dismissed me with prejudice. I only persisted because I feel that as soon as I said sleep training she stopped listening to what is generally regarded as common sense advice for getting toddlers/pre schoolers to sleep.

I’m horrified with how this conversation has gone. I only persisted as I feel I was dismissed abruptly and unfairly. AIBU?

YANBU to offer an opinion but I guess maybe pressing the point annoyed her.

However I have limited sympathy for those that moan about a situation like this but will do nothing to try and change it. As for this: Op do you have any idea how much energy it takes to sleep train? She’s had 2.5 years of exhaustion and she’s pregnant as much energy as holding your two year old to sleep every night?! She could have tried anything before she got pregnant again, don't use pregnancy as the excuse when the child is 2.5.

Also, there's nothing to suggest this is a high needs baby.

But whatever. If some parents are happy with giving up their entire evenings to comfort their child to sleep, it doesn't bother me. It's not be that's being inconvenienced.

I'm mid sleep training my 21 month old. First night done- . I had a million different people tell me I should have done it months/ a year ago, but I had to get there in my own time. We all learn how to parent in different ways and we all carry different baggage/reasons that influence our choices.
That being said, I did make a conscious decision about 8 months ago just to tell everyone he was sleeping through the night (after a work colleague told me that he would not be cognitively developing correctly because of lack of sleep-harsh!)
I can tell you it's no mean feat to work full time and pretend your are getting 8 hours when really you're up 7 times a night breastfeeding a toddler

I know you meant well, it's frustrating to watch people do something that is hurting them when you think you could solve it, but actually unless she's ready she won't have the steely determination for 3+ nights of toddler protest when if she did do it.

I don’t think you were unreasonable to offer advice but you were to pursue it.

The trouble is, if a child doesn’t sleep often parents feel judged or to blame.
Parents who advocate whatever sleep training routine worked for them only do so for that reason; because it worked FOR THEM. Not every technique works for every child and for a high needs child sometimes they just have to do it when they are good and ready. I have tried everything with my 20 month old. And I mean everything. Short of booking myself into a hotel for a week and leaving DC home alone to fend for themselves there’s nothing left for me to try. Seriously, I’m not making a rod for my own back, but right now it’s just not happening.

The difference here though is that I don’t talk about it, because I know that well-meaning advice from friends who simply have not experienced this sort of relentlessly high needs child will just piss me off.

@LaurieMarlow my point exactly. However any sleep training marked as 'no tears' is a lie imo and all sleep training involves some level of distress and discomfort. Doesn't mean all sleep training is wrong. But all sleep training requires taking baby out of their ideal environment/ habit and showing them a new way

You weren't unreasonable to make the suggestion. It is a valid and popular approach.
You were very unreasonable to continue to push the issue once she had made it clear that wasn't the avenue she wished to go down.

Of course you were being silly. The tone of your post is that you know best when the reality is you don't know more about her DC than she does. It's not like she'll have never heard of sleep training if you hadn't mentioned it - if she wanted to use it she would have. It's unlikely her DC was up that late by being defiant - he probably couldn't sleep. You could have asked her if she'd considered sleep training then let it go when she said no.

If you persist with forcing your parenting wisdom on all your friends you'll have issues when they get older. It may also turn back on you. I had an aunt with 3 kids who thought she was the expert on parenting (they were all relatively easy going kids) she would always insist you should do things her way as she had 3 good sleepers, 3 good eaters etc. Her 4th was a complete nightmare - never slept out of her bed for a year, loads of tantrums super fussy till about 4 and still very difficult to get a good diet into him. My aunt is suddenly less of an expert now!

FFS yes you are unreasonable. You were unreasonable right from the point you said "it's time to..." rather than "Have you thought about...?"

Nobody "needs" sleep training and it's certainly not a given that every child will need it at some point. I despise this attitude.

Will it be the right option for some families at some times - YES.

Is it an appropriate suggestion towards somebody who is struggling - ONLY if you do it right. Which you did not, IMO. Presenting it as an option which you can offer advice/tips/support with if she's interested in pursuing it is one thing, presenting it as something she should have done months ago and she's clearly totally lazy/avoidant for not wanting to do is shit.

I don't get where this idea comes from? Do people feel guilty about choosing sleep training so have to convince themselves that it's some kind of morally right thing that every good parent does and people who don't sleep train are harming their child? I don't have any issue with sleep training as a thing, I recognise that it's absolutely the right choice for many families and they find it helpful and that's good, but I find the judgement on both sides to be enraging.

I’m a sleep trainer and a nanny. I can’t work fro parents who don’t want to sleep train. If she’s happy with her kids then leave her alone.

'Rod for her own back', 'her funeral', 'more fool her'.

Standard 'my way is best' answers out in force I see.

YABU to persist with the unsolicited advice even after she told you she wasn’t interested. Some children sleep better than others, some respond to sleep training better than others.

I got really anxious as a new mum because of all the things people were saying to me about the perils of feeding to sleep, 4 month sleep regression etc. As it happened we never had a sleep regression and despite being fed to sleep and not “taught to self settle” my son has slept through since 10 months. I spent a lot of time worrying for nothing. I wish people would stop telling others how to raise their kids.

She messaged the group chat because she wanted a moan and some sympathy from her friends. At no point did she ask for advice. So not only was it completely unsolicited, you didn’t even make a gentle suggestion and told her very bluntly what to do. Then you made it worse by comparing it, inaccurately, to a tantrum. You misunderstood her message, overstepped, then kept pushing. Your friend had it right when she said each to their own- listen to that. If this for real and not a reverse then I would suggest that you apologise.

YABU. Hear what's she's saying. She doesn't want to (and probably with good reason!)

YABU, people who think sleep training is the answer to everything usually have never experienced a high needs baby who will not be put down

I did, that's the reason I sleep trained.

Do people feel guilty about choosing sleep training so have to convince themselves that it's some kind of morally right thing that every good parent does and people who don't sleep train are harming their child

Not at all, if you are happy to rock a 2.5 year old to sleep then great, good for you. Genuinely - not an issue.

If, like my DSIS, you do this and consistently complain about how awful it is and how much it impacts on your life and how you wish it wasn't so, but also refuse to do anything about it...my sympathy is limited.

Sleep training? Really? This child is 3.5 years. He completely understands what he is doing (Looking for 1:1 attention from his mum - ok, but not acceptable at that time of night).

At his age he is perfectly capable of understanding language. So put him to bed as normal, then explain to him that you are tired and mummy time

I thought that but on rereading the baby is 2.5. Still a bit old for traditional sleep training, more a super nanny return to bed job I think

Arrgghh posted too soon

And mummy time is during the day. That he must go to sleep now and although mummy and daddy will be close by, they will not come back till morning. (stair gate across his open bedroom door). Yup, he will yell, but if you stick to your guns, it will be sorted in less than a week.

Then you’ll know what a fool you’ve been, being manipulated by a 3 year old.

I only had to domthis for one of my four. He’s 40 now. I love him to bits and he loves me too!

Sounds like OP feels secretly guilty at having sleep trained her own child as she knows in her heart that it caused her child distress. Because if that she feels the need to try to persuade others round to her point of view to do the same thing, to lessen her own difficult feelings.

So unreasonable

I would never sleep train my baby, but I don't judge those who do. You sound incredibly judgemental of your friend. She just needed some moral support.

Refuses to do anything? Or refuses to sleep train? Those are not the same thing.

I also find the response very lacking in empathy. I don't restrict sympathy to my friends based on whether I think they're solving the situation in the way that I would do it. To me it's a no brainer to co-sleep in order to get as much sleep as possible until either the child doesn't need/want to any more, or it isn't working for some reason. That doesn't mean that I don't recognise that other people might have reasons they don't want to do that, and I still have sympathy for a parent struggling with waking up in the night, sitting up in the cold out of bed, feeding, having to make several attempts at transferring the baby and then being too awake to get back to sleep quickly. That's hellish, and much as I think well you could solve that immediately by just sleeping with the baby, it's not really relevant if they don't want to do it that way.

If you don't have sympathy for somebody being tired because they won't sleep train, why do you think they won't do it? Is it because you think they are lazy or have believed some misinformation or what? I am genuinely curious because I find it a very judgemental "my way or the highway" type view but there must be more to it than that.

Also I think there is a difference between "I'm letting off steam about the parts of this situation I'm finding hard, even though overall I'm OK with the status quo" and "I'm really struggling and I need to make a change". Sometimes it feels like the first one isn't allowed with certain parenting decisions without people jumping on you and insisting that you must be in the second position when actually you're not.

YABU. Making the suggestion was fine, but when she said sleep training was not for her you should have dropped the issue.

Mmn I think you could have described your own experience but it's always about the specific dynamic of that parent and child so sleep training won't always be the right answer and you made it sound like it was and she was dumb for not trying. So yabu to some extent.

However I also think people who on principle are against sleep training because it involves crying are also unreasonable - we sleep trained because dd was crying a lot through the gentle method we used before. Much less crying after a few days of sleep training. Net result, less crying.

Yes to all that BertieBotts!

Sleep training doesn't work for every child (my boy vomits everywhere if left to cry for example!) but thats kind of irrelevant because if she said "not for me" then you should have backed off or maybe said "well if its of interest i can talk you through it and you can decide from there".

You weren't asked for advice, yet you offered it.. strike 1.
You were told 'no thankyou' to that unsolicited advice and you carried on pushing it - strike 2.
You've assumed she doesn't understand what you were advising - strike 3.

Yes, YABU.