AIBU to suggest that you aren't really an animal lover if you're not a vegan

[KylieKoKo]

I'm a meateater but I was chatting to a vegan friend of mine about this and I think she has a point. It makes no sense to call yourself an animal lover if you pay others to kill animals or take their milk and eggs when its perfectly possible to live without them. I couldn't help but agree with her, and, as a non-vegan, had to conceed that I don't really love animals. In fact, I'm putting the fact that they taste nice above their lives and well-being on a daily basis.

I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone on here had an argument against this.

I’m a meat eater but I don’t think some of the arguments presented here are very good.

Vegans do result in the death of animals from pest control and medication testing. Some people have conditions where it is not sensible to be vegan as mentioned by PP eg T1 diabetic or allergies, B12 deficient, certain anaemias. However in many cases people would be better off eating my more plant-based foods.

I’m not sure whether pasture land is much better than woodland ecologically.
Certainly energy is lost if more food comes from animals because crops need to be grown for the animal feed (which requires pest control, fertiliser etc as well as the animal losing some energy by respiration).

I don’t think it will be a problem with slaughtering animals quickly as not everyone would change their diets at the same time so it would be more gradual and the meat could still be sold to people. Keeping animals also involves slaughter due to disease etc.

If we stopped as non-arable farming and everyone moved to a vegan diet, we would not suddenly have farms turning into lovely woodlands. The land would instead have to be used to grow produce for a vegan diet and not all land is suitable for that. Hillsides are not suitable for arable farming.

I do not think being an animal lover and a meat eater are mutually exclusive. I like animals (definitely not spiders though), but my desire for there to be no captive orcas in Seaworld does not preclude me from wanting to eat steak.

Meat eating is more about respect and that is the part that is sometimes missing from the food chain, to a large extent from supermarkets and what they will stock (since that is where the majority will get their meat). If we kill an animal to eat then we should honour that animal by using the whole of the animal. Top chefs are very into top-to-tail eating these days and that is what needs to be promoted more. I remember on a Jamie Oliver tv show where he was meeting 'ordinary people' and there were families who would have a roast chicken, eat the breast meat and then bin the rest. That is the sort of waste that is disrespectful to the animal.

Surely you don't have to "love" animals to not want them to suffer misery?

@honflyr have you tried Oatly barista in tea/coffee? Lots of my Omni friends and family have switched to this at home because they say it's creamier and tastier than cows milk.

^^Part of “ husbanding” animals is keeping numbers sustainable. So we eat them. What would happen to them if we didn’t?

They wouldn't exist - or they would in sanctuaries or as pets, in much fewer numbers which would be better than forcibly impregnating animals, seperating them at birth and murdering them at 5 months old to make bacon.

There is no humane way to kill someone that doesn't want to die.

@DoctorAllcome sex between wild animals is 'rape' you say. Fine. We aren't talking about wild animals, we're talking about farmed animals being raped by a different species forcibly, every year and their young being taken a few hours after birth. It is completely and utterly different to 'daycare' because guess what, humans consent to sending their children away and have a choice. Cows are raped every year, their babies taken away (and in most cases never seen again) and their milk stolen for human consumption, until they get too old and are shot. The difference is the interference and abuse by humans. You are also missing a crucial point in your 'we use their feathers, wool, milk, skin' etc. This is all as equally wrong as eating their flesh. They aren't ours to use and abuse in this way, they are indivdual animals murdered on a mass scale day in day out, to suit humans.

As for all the 'vegans aren't perfect' parade it's impossible to eat 100% ethically because we don't live in an ethical world. Just because we can't do something perfectly doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Vegans are often more aware of other issues such as palm oil and avoid it, vegans aren't the only ones to eat avocados and you can now buy UK grown quinoa, but again, not just vegans eat that.

Using animals for food, clothes or any other purpose is cruel, outdated and barbaric. It may not be easy to go vegan because of the culture we live in, but it is changing and becoming easier all the time as more and more people wake up and choose to live a life more in line with their values. ✌️🌱

actually b12 doesn't naturally come from meat as such, humans used to get it from running water/soil dirt from veg but with chemicals that clean both that's gone now.

Where did you get that info from?!

ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/

Liver, beef, clams, fish are excellent or good natural sources of B12.

I'm an animal lover, I just have a different definition of what that entails than a militant vegan.

The animal I would dramatically curtail the freedoms of first and foremost is the human being. We're the ones fucking up the ecosystem, and shaping entire landscapes around our consumption.

But although I find them fascinating and in some cases cute, I don't see animals as somehow better than humans either. They kill, eat and even torture each other without compunction.

Thinking that eating animals means you can't love and appreciate them is frankly dumb. As numerous PP have pointed out, feeding humans (another animal, as I've said) a vegan diet would destroy far more of the ecosystem and farm animal life than it would save.

Do vegans hate lions and tigers and other carnivores?

Surely you don't have to "love" animals to not want them to suffer misery?

Not sure what point of that sentence was, but it reminded me to point out that animals living in farms with good welfare practices can lead much less stressful lives (thus less miserable) than free living animals.
Animals in nature have to fend off predators, look for food (which can often be scarce), compete with each other, die from disease and accidents, etc.

Another note to comments about cows being raped. Do you think free living cows mate for love?

But it's totally avoidable! Avoidable misery!

I never understand why people think its fine to build facilities and industries concentrating on the mass killing of animals...and then make out its a better option that living in the wild. They are genetically selected and bred for food, there's nothing natural or moral about it.

And you don't have to love animals to see that.

I think you need to define misery from the point of view of a cow or chicken.

And why the concern about calves going to cow day care and being formula fed while mummy cow goes to work for two hours a day to be milked? You know they are put back together in the field when milking is done? The calf suckling stimulates the milk production.
Humans are “torn” from their babies for 10hrs a day to work too and most human mothers have to feed their babies formula too....

Calves are often removed in the first 24 hours and it's not as harmless as you are making it sound. As for humans, I had a sahp.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150428081801.htm

And calves don't need formula when they have a mother cow there to supply her milk, how unnatural to take the calf away and feed it formula just so humans can have cow milk

Surely we should be drinking human milk, but I think taking away a human mother's baby in the 1st 24-hours just to pump her milk for consumption by other adult humans would be frowned upon. Cows are fair game though.

I think we all need to eat far less meat, for environmental reasons. If we ate less meat, there would hopefully be more room for more sustainable farming practices. Vegans shouting about cows being raped does not make me want to go vegan. It makes me want to start eating meat again! People arent stupid. They know what goes on in abbatoirs. It's been talked about for 30 years. Changing peoples behaviour through persuasion, explaining the benefits of eating less meat, developing tasty alternatives works. Hassling people at the Tesco meat counter and trying shut down the local butcher doesn't.

This highlights the difference between good and bad welfare practices.

Milk can be produced without taking calves away at 24h. It will be more expensive, but then we have to vote with our wallets too.

But the existence of bad practices should not mean that all meat or animal products should be banned.
Practices should be improved instead.

@noodlenosefraggle
Fully agree. Less meat products. As well as less exotic produce that require destroying forests and other environments and require long transport, particularly in cold storage.

In fact, overeating in general is the main cause of food waste.
www.earth.com/news/waste-food-overeating/

Where did you get that info from?!

Liver, beef, clams, fish are excellent or good natural sources of B12.

You didn't read my post properly I fear. I never said meat wasn't a way of getting B12 but it doesn't actually come from the meat itself and some farmed animals are fed supplements of B12 aswell because of their living conditions and not naturally getting it anymore :

Where does B12 come from?
Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, not animals or plants. As such, animals, including humans, must obtain it directly or indirectly from bacteria. It can be found in bacteria-laden manure and unsanitized water, though we obviously should not be consuming either of those things. It can also be found in the human intestinal tract, but it’s not clear whether sufficient amounts are made and absorbed there to meet our nutritional needs.

Many animal foods contain high amounts of vitamin B12 because they accumulate this bacterial product during their lives, and livestock are often supplemented with vitamin B12 in their feed. These animals are also exposed to manure in their living conditions, with some even being fed manure. (For example, cows are sometimes fed poultry waste.) In fact, the FDA has reported that most meats are contaminated with fecal bacteria.

In the past, vitamin B12 from bacteria was also naturally and more reliably present in plant foods. Today, however, with modern hygienic practices more effectively cleaning and sanitizing produce, along with soil being exposed to more antibiotics and pesticides, most plant foods are no longer reliable sources of this bacterial product.

Interestingly, some plant foods still contain some vitamin B12, including certain mushrooms and seaweed. And, many plant-based food products, such as cereals, non-dairy milks, and nutritional yeast, are now fortified with a crystalline form of vitamin B12, making them good sources of vitamin B12.

The crystalline form of vitamin B12, which is the form used in fortified foods and supplements, is actually preferable to the protein-bound form present in animal foods because it’s generally easier for our bodies to absorb.

www.forksoverknives.com/vitamin-b12-questions-answered-2/#gs.b5b064

I did read your post:

humans used to get it from running water/soil dirt from veg but with chemicals that clean both that's gone now.
?

Well you couldn't possibly have read my 2nd one in that space of time

What's your question? I'm saying it doesn't originate with animals as it's produced by bacteria? I never said you couldn't get it from meat? And in fact farmed animals are given the supplement in their feeds so are "middle men" as such

Just enough. You'd be surprised...

By the way, it's not quite so as you presented:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5788147/

"Edible plants and mushrooms rarely contain a considerable amount of vitamin B12, mainly due to concomitant bacteria in soil and/or their aerial surfaces. Thus, humans acquire vitamin B12 formed by microbial interaction via mainly ruminants and fish (or shellfish) as food sources."

More than anything, humans used to eat more liver and clams before.

I'm not disputing anything you say here, so I'm confused by what point you're trying to pick me up on?

Hey, vitamin B12 is the only nutrient that can't be obtained from a vegan diet. So supplements are needed. I get my vitamin B12 from my supplemented soy milk and nutritional yeast. But there are tablet forms of it available as well.

I was specifically disputing this specific statement
"humans used to get it from running water/soil dirt from veg but with chemicals that clean both that's gone now"
I thought that was clear, as I quoted it.

Why do vegans think they get to judge everyone else and force them to defend themselves? My god it’s as bad as the religious nutters who try and stop you in the street and induct you. I eat meat, I’m also an animal lover. Fuck off trying to tell me I’m not.

YANBU. People who eat animals and claim to love them, obviously don't love animals. They love animals we keep as pets.

It is possible to have a low calorie vegan diet, I'm not sure why there is a misconception that a vegan diet would have to be high carbohydrate. If you have specific dietary requirements I suggest you consult a dietician.

Bullshit, @scittlescatter. Classic dismissive cop out from a dim person privileged enough to have no lived experience of a special diet for medical reasons.

A dietician isn't gifted with magic powers to make your vegan diet be low in carbohydrates

As you seem to be using the concepts of low-calorie and low-carb interchangeably, that tells me you know very little about nutrition overall.

Sorry Boshmama,
You’re verging on fanatical. Veganism is at core a religion that anthropomorphizes animals. You believe animals are sentient, that they can love, and can “consent” to various things like sex and baby daycare or work. Your entire world view is that of a child and is literally based on Disney portrayals of animals as thinking and self aware beings when they are not.

Yet despite your professed love for animals you quite freely admit that your ultimate goal is for domesticated animals to “not exist - or they would in sanctuaries or as pets, in much fewer numbers which would be better....”. Why would that be “better”? You can’t cut out entire swathes of the food chain and ecosystem without causing environmental collapse. We’re talking a catastrophe worse than climate change. And from the perspective of a sheep, cow, pig or chicken do you think they would choose a future in which they were on endangered species list?