AIBU to suggest that you aren't really an animal lover if you're not a vegan

[KylieKoKo]

I'm a meateater but I was chatting to a vegan friend of mine about this and I think she has a point. It makes no sense to call yourself an animal lover if you pay others to kill animals or take their milk and eggs when its perfectly possible to live without them. I couldn't help but agree with her, and, as a non-vegan, had to conceed that I don't really love animals. In fact, I'm putting the fact that they taste nice above their lives and well-being on a daily basis.

I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone on here had an argument against this.

YANBU I am a meat eater but eat very little meat. I do eat dairy and fish. I would love to explore vegan cooking more but find it quite bland when cooked by me.

A vegan diet requires far less land than an omnivorous diet. If more people become vegan, than less land would be needed for food production, and therefore more land could be left to lie fallow or be reforested.

And this reveals the violence inherent and lack of understanding the long term consequences in the vegan philosophy.

Why? Because this statement can only be true IF we went to all farms with machine guns and slaughtered every last domesticated farm animal in existence. Just wipe the species off the planet for good.

We could only then convert some grazing land to agriculture and leave a little teeny tiny bit fallow. Of course, without grazing land, we will no longer be able to rotate crops. So there’d be no cycle of grazing livestock leaving their natural fertilising dung to replenish the land for agriculture a few years later (usual cycle is 1 yr grow crops, 3yrs fallow/grazed). So, to keep the land producing crops, we’d need to dump a shit ton of artificial chemical fertiliser on the fields. But even then, in a generation or two, the top soil would erode and the artificial fertiliser would become less effective and crops would fail, leading to world famines.

do meat eaters not eat any crops or vegetables?

Obviously we do. But obviously we’re accepting that animals will be killed for our food.

So you said I'd rather be 'aggressive' about veganism than aggressively kill animals for the sake of my palate any day.

So you accept that animals are aggressively killed for the sake of your palate and your argument is now that it is fewer than that of a meat eater?

Not quite as smug an argument is it?

But sadly the truth is the majority of people eat meat because they like the taste and have been culturally conditioned to eat it and seperate their feelings towards different species of animals.

Nope. The majority of humans eat meat because we evolved to be omnivores. That’s biology not cultural conditioning and “feelings.”

I agree. You can't be both. Most people are pet lovers. Some wild animals too. But in my mind, you can't say you're an animal lover and contribute to suffering and killing like we do.

@boshmama and I’d much rather eat meat than aggressively give misinformation and make a mountain out of a molehill.

You’ll never push your misconstrued veganism on me. I basically live amongst a city of farmland. All I’ve ever known is sheep in the road, cows in a field and pigs in pens. All lovely animals, whether their in a pen or on my plate.

Can happily say I’ve plucked and gutted my own pheasants since I was about 10 years old. Yummy.

But thanks for trying bosh

So whatever way you look at it vegans are killing an awful lot less animals than meat eaters - obviously.

Only if you conveniently fail to count all the animals killed by vegan substitutes for leather and wool.

Being vegan helps support the clearing of land for crops, which requires the destruction and murder of thousands of wild animals who were simply trying to live. Crop farmers will also trap and kill many animals which endanger their crops. At least meat eaters actually use the things they kill.

'The NHS would be unable to function effectively were it not for the availability of medicines and treatments that have been
developed or validated through research using animals' - Department of Health
I suppose all the true animal lovers would also be refusing treatment?

Scittle wrong, around 70%+ of plant growth is unsuitable for human consumption. Leaves, stalks, waste etc. THAT I’d what mainly goes for animal feed, to go fully plant based is impossible globally because there is not enough suitable land.

Farming works best as a cycle of plant and animal,

Bosh I haven’t attacked, ive given reasoned and factual argument. You have yet to disprove other than vitriol.

Coats I agree the 3rd world will suffer fastest from climate change but that climate change won’t be stopped by stopping animal agriculture, a practice that is needed to provide nutrition. It will only be stopped by the stopping of fossil fuels, transportation and population decrease.

People talk about emissions, but what about carbon sequestration. Pastureland for animals and hedgerows provides that, it takes carbon back out of the atmosphere. Cropping doesn’t.

Everything is a cycle and interlinked and I really wish the vegan movement would see that. It’s so black and white, which is unhelpful when actually agriculture, in the UK at least is not only aiming and on track for net zero by 2040, but may eventually provide a cooling effect.

I would love to explore vegan cooking more but find it quite bland when cooked by me

I don't think it's just when cooked by you. I recently ate at a celebrated vegan restaurant in Manchester, Asian food. Nicely done but I was waiting for the taste to flood through and it didn't. Spices don't infuse vegetables. This particular restaurant have a big dessert menu, I believe to compensate. Fine if you like a platter of little cake/pastries

@noblegiraffe it's still very smug thanks as I have a clean conscience. Unfortunately humans can't live on nothing, so I am taking the route of causing the least possible harm whilst staying alive.

Meat eaters are consciously choosing to put their desires above the life of another animal.

@idontwanttocooktonight I've not given out any misinformation at all. Funny you don't mention the inside of a slaughter house as somewhere you like to visit.

@DoctorAllcome yes, we may have evolved to eat some meat. But it isn't necessary now we aren't cave men, so continuing to eat other animals is a cultural decision, not a biological necessity.

@mrswx
Good point about healthcare. Vegans would also have to refuse many vaccines because they either are produced using eggs or gelatine (animal fat).

@boshmama

Um, I would have absolutely no issue visiting a slaughter house. Why not? I’m not unaware of how my meat gets to my plate, it just doesn’t phase me

You think all meat eaters are just blissfully unaware of how it all works? You think we don’t know meat is killed and doesn’t just fall from the sky into the butchers as lovely joints of beef and sausages? No, I know people are paid to kill animals and send it my way for digestion. I have absolutely no problem with that at all.

@Boshmama
But it isn't necessary now we aren't cave men, so continuing to eat other animals is a cultural decision, not a biological necessity.

That’s not how biology works. The way we are now is unchanged biologically compared to 200,000 years ago.
“modern Homo sapiens skeletons come from Africa. They date to nearly 200,000 years ago on that continent. They appear in Southwest Asia around 100,000 years ago and elsewhere in the Old World by 60,000-40,000 years ago.”

We were still living in caves 15,000 years ago.....

Culture does not change biology. The fact we don’t live in caves is culture, not biology.

it's still very smug thanks as I have a clean conscience. Unfortunately humans can't live on nothing, so I am taking the route of causing the least possible harm whilst staying alive.

Least possible harm? So you only eat food you’ve grown yourself?

Can’t eat Italian tomatoes, they’re picked by slaves. Can’t eat avocados because of Mexican cartels and appalling human rights violations. Can’t eat quinoa, it’s taking food from the mouths of Peruvians.

From this thread one could assume the vegan diet is deficient in the necessary nutrients to understand anything about any farming practices or land management.

Factory farming is gruesome, and imo should be banned, with the price increase that would entail. But for some reason vegans never seem particularly bothered about joining sides to improve welfare. Instead they just want to share their woeful lack of knowledge of farming and bang on as though they're better informed and morally superior.

I mean c'mon, posting about livestock being stabbed to death. You'll find most meat eaters don't eat unstunned halal, and even that, despicable as it is doesn't involve stabbing. Just woefully ignorant drivel.

Barring YouTube videos, I doubt many have ever seen a large animal shot (gun or captive bolt) by an expert. It's quick and done in situ, the animal is not the least distressed or aware of what is happening. The solution is all meat production done in the same manner. Not wiping out a rainforest and several species to congratulate yourself on what an animal lover you are.

allcome off topic, but where did you read the research about hippos being cannibals? Just interested because it's not something I've heard before and I wouldn't mind reading up on it.

@BrassTactical
*People talk about emissions, but what about carbon sequestration. Pastureland for animals and hedgerows provides that, it takes carbon back out of the atmosphere. Cropping doesn’t.

Everything is a cycle and interlinked and I really wish the vegan movement would see that. It’s so black and white, which is unhelpful when actually agriculture, in the UK at least is not only aiming and on track for net zero by 2040, but may eventually provide a cooling effect.*

Yes, vegans think we can just ignore the ecosystem to follow their cult not understanding that humans as predators are an essential part of that cycle which supports and sustains ALL life 👍🏾

@TrainspottingWelsh

Hungry hippos...yes, here is an article in National Geographic complete with photo of a hippo eating another hippo.
www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/1/150123-hippos-cannibalism-animals-food-science/

“In 2014, while on safari in South Africa’s Kruger National Park, conservation biologist Leejiah Dorward came across a hippo eating the partially submerged corpse of another at the edge of a river.

“I was completely amazed. It was something I had never heard of,” said Dorward, a Ph.D. student at the U.K.’s University of Oxford.

When he got back to London, Dorward searched the research literature and found that cannibalism in hippos had been described only once before—by S. Keith Eltringham in 1999.

Normally thought of as herbivores, hippos have shown other carnivorous behavior before, too—in a 1998 paper, Joseph Dudley reported two of them killing and eating an impala. (Also see “‘Unusual’ Pictures: Lions vs. Hippo.”)”

It takes much less farmland to provide a vegan diet for humans than it does to raise animals. Obviously. The animals have to eat before they're killed, so the food raised for them takes up farmland. One calorie of animal protein takes between six and twenty six calories of plant to create (source: Eating Animals, Jonathan Safran Foer.)

Thank you, fascinating. I had been speculating if it was a lack of resources, when any meal will do, but from the article it goes beyond that.

No article to back it up, but I've personally heard of two separate instances of a healthy horse with ample grazing eating a dead rabbit from witnesses I believe. The first could be dismissed because it would try eating literally anything, but the second was a fussy sod. Possibly hearsay but I've also heard of one that would deliberately try and stomp them so it could eat them, but no idea of the source so I'm not sure that's true.

I can’t do links but if you google ‘do horses eat meat?’ There is plenty of evidence that, occasionally, they do. Apparently it’s the salty taste.

My view is all animals want to live. Just like you and I want to live. Your dog or cat wants to live. And so does a sweet farm animal. A previous poster stated how she deliberately purchased 2 little piglets to pet, look after, provide shelter for and then murder. I mean, just reading that back sounds psychotic. How can you let a little animal make friends with you, put their trust in you and then slit their throat? In sloughter houses, animals are known to approach the workers for comfort because they are petrified and confused, as they had been reared by these people before being sent to their supposed fate. It’s an emotive issue and I can wholeheartedly understand why people choose to be vegan.

I used to ride a horse who would hunt and kill mice, rabbits, chicks and other small furry animals.

His diet was fine but he used to eat them. Very unsettling!

@helmlover1 animals absolutely understand what is happening in slaughter houses, particularly pigs who are very intelligent. It's also common for bolt guns to fail while trying to kill animals and they will end up suspended by their ankles, alive, while entering the slaughter process.

It's true to say that humans evolved up eat meat because that's obvious. However, having the capacity to now choose whether to produce animals just for them to die for us to eat or to choose to not create life for us to kill because it tastes good... The choice us clear to me. First, do no harm

let’sghostdance I know, and I’ve seen some horrendous footage of what goes on in the slaughterhouses which I’m sure would be banned if I tried to share or post a link to. Because it’s so much easier not to think about where your ‘food’ is coming from. No one wants to see cute baby lambs screaming in terror. Ignorance is bliss.