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Original poster

Drinking drugs and smoking whilst being pregnant?

454 replies

pennygirl26 · 19/10/2019 13:11

I know someone who is due her baby in Dec. She only found out a few weeks ago she is pregnant.

She had very openly continued to smoke cigarettes and joints,but has been drinking also saying its not anything worse than what she's done in the past 6 months. She's also still taking coke every now and again. What can I do about this? I feel sick every time I see her. The other night I caught her buying a half bottle. It's just so dicgusting I don't know who to go to as I don't want her to know its me.

OP posts:
Bored40 · 20/10/2019 15:49

For the poster suggested you need to drink a bottle of spirits today for foetal alcohol syndrome, that's not true. FAS is affected by volume, but even small amounts (partic in the earlier stages of pregnancy) can have significant effects and result in a diagnosis. Theres a reason the suggested limits for drinking in pregnancy are so low.

Think about it, unborn baby is taking in what mum is taking in. Do you think that an unborn baby is going to do fine on a couple of beers a day?

seaweedandmarchingbands · 20/10/2019 17:06

Do you think that an unborn baby is going to do fine on a couple of beers a day?

Science. Hmm

SafetyAdvice0FeedWhenAgitated · 20/10/2019 17:16

Somehow I doubt she "just discovered" she is pregnant...
Report. At the very least hospital will know what to do if anything goes wrong with a baby during/after the birth.

TequilaPilates · 20/10/2019 17:21

GingersAreLush

I don't think pregnant women should be treated as mere incubators but I also don't think anyone has the right to inflict lifelong disabilities onto another human being, do you?

CravingCheese · 20/10/2019 17:52

The ever-compassionate Megan is suggesting smoking/drinking should be illegal whilst pregnant, which presumably means from the moment of conception. So the idea that a fully thinking, feeling, formed human being has less rights than a cluster of cells is actually correct, should Megan have her way.

I don't want to ciminalise pregnant women. But if you do know that they want to keep the baby? Then yes, moderate to heavy drinking and drugs is pretty inexcusable.

Even when the baby is at that point still just a clump of cells... Because that clump will (according to the very intentions of the mother) become a living, feeling and thinking human. Who may have severe disabilities due to drinking / drugs.

Anyway. I have heard of some doctors simply advicing heavy smokers to cut down because that's apparently more sustainable and realistic than telling them that they need to competely stop smoking? But Idk...
I myself did decrease my coffee consumption and stopped eating deli meat etc. But that's obviously not comparable to the difficulty alcoholics or otherwise addicted mothers face when they're pregnant...

SesameOil · 20/10/2019 19:19

People have the right to bodily autonomy. This means that yes, there are circumstances in which they do have the right to inflict lifelong bodily harm on a human being that is inside their body.

The problem is that this is a binary decision. Either you accept that a pregnant woman is an incubator for some/all of the pregnancy or you accept she has the right to do legal things that could have a lifelong detriment impact on the other human being that is inside her. Those are the choices.

TequilaPilates · 20/10/2019 19:24

This means that yes, there are circumstances in which they do have the right to inflict lifelong bodily harm on a human being that is inside their body

This just makes me feel sick. What about that child? What are the effects on that human being for the rest of their life?

PurpleDaisies · 20/10/2019 19:29

This just makes me feel sick. What about that child? What are the effects on that human being for the rest of their life?

But what is the alternative? Yes, this is awful but the alternative is worse.

SesameOil · 20/10/2019 19:30

I don't like it either tequila. However, the alternative is worse. And also not very enforceable anyway.

CravingCheese · 20/10/2019 19:36

People have the right to bodily autonomy. This means that yes, there are circumstances in which they do have the right to inflict lifelong bodily harm on a human being that is inside their body

It's not an absolute right. Or else I'd be able to have a 3rd trimester abortion simply because I want to... Paternity tests couldn't be ordered either. DNA samples couldn't be ramen for criminal investigations... The right of bodily integrity is simply not absolute.

if you want to keep that baby?? You do not have the right to inflict lifelong bodily harm on a human being that is inside their body just for shit and giggles. Or simply because you want to... Or don't care.

It's an assault on a future human and absolutely disgusting. And imo actually (to a much lesser degree, but still) on society in general....

Dutch1e · 20/10/2019 19:37

Who cares about 'legal rights'

Me.

Me too. I may not make the same choices as this particular woman but her choices are her own to make.

Go ahead and report her, I see the logic. Hopefully she will end up with some genuine support and not be condemned.

PurpleDaisies · 20/10/2019 19:38

if you want to keep that baby?? You do not have the right to inflict lifelong bodily harm on a human being that is inside their body just for shit and giggles. Or simply because you want to... Or don't care.

Which law does this fall under?

CravingCheese · 20/10/2019 19:46

Morality. Common decency...

The rest depends on wherever you're from.

There is however a stronger argument (and also easier enforceability) to outlaw it after the legal time frame for an abortion.

I'm actually not sure whether that's the solution (or whether I'd support it) but using the argument of bodily integrity to defend the right to do lifelong harm to an other human being is imo absolutely disgusting. And is actually propably harmful when it comes to actually defending women's reproductive and medical rights.

TequilaPilates · 20/10/2019 19:48

Yes, this is awful but the alternative is worse.

Is it? Does a child not have a right to be born without an avoidable lifelong disability?

What are the effects of FAS? How does that affect that child throughout their life?

Surely with rights come responsibilities?
Those poor children. Those effects will be for their entire lives. How can someone have the right to do that?

CravingCheese · 20/10/2019 19:48

I myself (btw) would rather defend mandatory counseling, group therapy and other support to help these women battle addiction.

But there would need to be a legal basis to enforce the 'mandatory'....🤷🏻‍♀️

PurpleDaisies · 20/10/2019 19:51

There is however a stronger argument (and also easier enforceability) to outlaw it after the legal time frame for an abortion.

So pregnant women will be put in prison while they incubate their foetuses?

What do you mean it would be easily legally enforcible? On what grounds? Would the foetus be granted personhood after a certain number of weeks?

SesameOil · 20/10/2019 19:51

This is why I said there are circumstances in which cravingcheese, not that it was an absolute right. There are limits on the bodily autonomy of anyone who lives in a society.

However, when another human being is inside your body, you do have a right to do things that might have a lifelong detrimental impact on them. There is no alternative, not least because of the range of behaviours you'd have to police. It wouldn't just be a question of sending pregnant women to prison if they smoke or drink, though given the poor outcomes for the children of incarcerated women you might well be making things worse for the baby anyway. There'd need to be way more.

For example, if you have HIV or actually quite a few STIs, this can be very dangerous. Testing is offered at booking in, but a woman might have unprotected sex with a new partner thereafter. So no shagging allowed, on pain of... what? The air pollution in some areas is, I read this week, equivalent to smoking 10 cigarettes a day. We all know how bad that can be for a foetus. So once you POAS, tough shit if you happen to live in Scunthorpe, or London. Off to the countryside with you. Some essential medication poses risks to the foetus too, some of it serious. Now, a pregnant woman who cannot stay living and/or healthy without something that could harm the bodily health of someone else gets to make that choice alongside treating clinicians. Without that choice, then what?

And if this is really about the welfare of a baby, then you need to think about how you stop women doing these harmful things. Not just the ones you disapprove of more.

PurpleDaisies · 20/10/2019 19:52

Going to counselling or therapy does not force someone to stop smoking or drinking.

SesameOil · 20/10/2019 19:56

Yes tequila, it is much worse. There's no question about that. Think about what would need to be done in order to coerce women into behaving in a certain way when pregnant, the apparatus that might be required to do that and the potential impact on all of us. How might that look? Do you trust the state with that? Think about the impact on women when eg abortion is criminalised and miscarriage is punished. What happens when a doctor suspects FAS but the woman says she didnt drink? 50% of these babies whose welfare we are discussing are female, after all. They're going to need rights over their own pregnant bodies when they grow up.

CravingCheese · 20/10/2019 19:59

@PurpleDaisies
I didn't say that... And I don't see myself (or any other woman) as an incubator. Thank you for that nice little dig.Hmm

Now, a pregnant woman who cannot stay living and/or healthy without something that could harm the bodily health of someone else gets to make that choice alongside treating clinicians. Without that choice, then what?

Absolutely. Like medication. Or life saving treatments.

And whilst therapy and counseling don't keep someone from drinking / taking drugs? They might be helpful. To people that do at least have the minimum amount of what we tend to call human decency. And don't want to permanently harm their child...

As for the argument about STDs... I'm assuming that the women in question didn't know their sexual partner had HIV / an other STD?

Whereas people who drink are indeed aware of the fact that they are consuming alcohol.

GingersAreLush · 20/10/2019 20:01

GingersAreLush
I don't think pregnant women should be treated as mere incubators but I also don't think anyone has the right to inflict lifelong disabilities onto another human being, do you?

I hate the idea of that too, which is why I tried so hard to take good care of my babies before they were born as well as after, but what is the alternative? Something along the lines of a hand maids tale? Yeah, no thanks.

TequilaPilates · 20/10/2019 20:07

What are the affects of FAS on children as they grow up and into adulthood?

How can we as a society shrug and say yep, women have the right to do that?

SesameOil · 20/10/2019 20:08

Your post seems to focus more on your moral judgement of the various behaviours rather than the potential impact on the baby cravingcheese. If you think a woman doesn't have the right to do certain things when pregnant, that really has to be based on the latter not the former. I mean, you can judge all you like. That's your right and your business, but not what this is about.

SesameOil · 20/10/2019 20:09

Because of the alternatives tequila. If you refuse to engage with them then you're not going to get it.

TequilaPilates · 20/10/2019 20:16

I just can't marry the 2 sesame

I can understand fully your arguments about bodily autonomy and policing behaviours.

But then you have a child being born with a lifelong disability that will seriously affect all aspects of their life and I just think "how can that be right? What about that child when they're 5, 15, 30,50? What's their life going to be like?"