Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

570 replies

Sammyp235 · 17/10/2019 20:39

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

OP posts:
Rominiyi · 27/10/2019 12:40

@Birch67

Depending on how young your child is, if they study Phonics, then they will start reading, and reading a lot at a young age.

My daughter went to place called Leaders are Readers to do that at the ages of 4 and 5. It was fantastic! I believe they have a website. She went on Saturday's.

I also bought some software, but I am not sure if it's still available. It's for 4-5 year olds. The software is called "Jump Ahead Starting School Pack". There are three discs in the box set -

Starting Reading,
Starting Maths and,
Starting School.

She loved doing those. They teach through play. It's from a company called Knowledge adventure.

She also had this Ninendo Gizmo/Gadget games console. You'll know that kids quickly get tired of one game and ask you to buy another. Sneak in a good many purchases from the BRAIN TRAINING brand. That is what it's actually called. You won't have to remind your child. They will be doing it non-stop!

If you have a shop that sells children's educational material and toys near you, Spend a lot of time there. Buy your child a portable blackboard, which has a whiteboard on the reverse side. Buy loads of chalk and white board markers with erasable ink in different colours, and a blackboard duster. You will find that they will use it a lot, and you will also use it to explain things to them. You can get a lot of this from IKEA.

Then, buy a roll of wide paper that your child can hang over the portable blackboard which they can paint on. Buy loads of paint. Buy colouring in books. Buy jigsaw puzzles, buy flash cards. Make sure your child paints in old clothes and put newspaper on the floor.

Buy a big poster with the times table on it, and stick it on the fridge. Tell them to take a glance at it every now and again, and tell you what they see. Don't force them to memorize it. Their teacher will do that at school.

Buy another big poster with ABC's and images of animals or common objects on it, and stick it on the living room door.

You can buy these strips of phonics characters and images (finding it difficult to describe them). Stick them all around your child's room. Ask any primary school teacher you may have access to where you can buy these things. Check on Amazon. Ask other Mum's

I am not sure how old your child is, but if you can, look up Kumon on line. They provide English and Maths lessons after school for primary and secondrary school children.

Hopefully your child will get into a grammar school, and most likely will not have to continue with Kumon into secondrary school.

Now, my daughter did Kumon Maths only, and she attended the after school classes once a week, where they had tutors some of whom were A-Level students/university students, etc, under a centre co-ordinatotor correcting the work they did in the last week, and explaining in great detail the work they had got wrong, and making sure they made the corrections there and then. Sometimes the centre is in a library, sometimes it's in hall. The centre my daughter attended was in a church.

They have to do a set of worksheets every single day of the year including Saturday's and Sunday's, throughout the holidays, come rain come 'shine. And, if they are ill, they have to make up for the one's they've missed when they get better.

The good thing is the worksheets they have to complete take only 15 -20 minutes per day, and their is a very, very smooth progression as they go along so that they never, ever find the whole process daunting or overwhelming. All you have got to do is -make sure they do the worksheets every single day without fail.

By the time I had to engage with my daughter with her sciences at GCSE and A-Level, one thing I noticed was she was lightening fast at mathematics! Way faster than me! She got A* in mathematics at both GCSE and A-Level, and I've put it down to Kumon Maths at an early age. I did help her with a few things in geometry, algebra, etc., but she picked that up immediately.

After my daughter's A-level results came out. I said the Kumon Maths had really helped a lot. She said she "hated doing it, you have to do it every day". Ha ha ... it was two of us against one of her. She didn't have a choice!

Now, some MNer's have mentioned that you can buy Kumon worksheets on line nowadays, which will be cheaper, but you will have to do all the marking and explanation yourself.

If you look up these places on-line and they do not have any centre's near you, not to worry. Study their web sites very well, and you may be able to find something similar within living distance. You may well be able to judge the quality of the service they provide. Also, ask people you know. Ask your local council's children's services.

The important thing is that you are not doing everything yourself, as it can/will become overwhelming. I am sure your partner will be happy to help.

"All work and no play will make Jack a very dull boy"

  • Swimming lessons at the local leisure centre, diving lessons, tennis lessons, ballet lessons, tap lessons, Brownies, drama lessons, language lessons, etc,. As many as you can afford. They may have after school activities at there school. My daughter did gardening there and thoroughly enjoyed it.

However, if you can only afford just one or two, it will make a massive difference to your child's well being and attitude towards their academic work. Some children even do Judo, Karate, things like that, etc

Fantastic! Your child is learning a musical instrument, that's number 1. Make sure they do all the grade exams. Same goes for dance lessons. All that will greatly enhance their application to grammar schools, as well as their UCAS application

Check out your local council's website and see if they have a Music Services section for children. Ask at your child's school. Enrol your child there if possible, they will most likely arrange an orchestra.

When it came to the eleven plus my daughter had private tutors, and she also went to SWOT shop, which does more or less the same thing but in a group setting. Have a look at it online. If their is nothing in yiour area, you may be able to find something similar.

If you live in an area where their are many grammar schools, Kent for example, then you can be afford to be a little bit more relaxed as long as you are consistent. Very consistent. However, if you live in an area where there are only 1, 2 or 3 superselective grammar schools with no catchment area, such that they accept children from 40-50 miles away and beyond, then you have to be much more pro-active.

I am sure that by the time I publish this post, their will have been quite a lot of advice and suggestions given about what contemporary parents of young children are doing.

Do as much as you can as not to get overwhelmed. Don't overdo things though, as if you become stressed and exhausted, then that will be of no use whatsoever. I guess it's my inside knowledge of what was going on in the comprehensive schools that I worked at that drove me to the extremes.

My daughter had a great time though, apart from the Kumon Maths!

DownstairsMixUp · 27/10/2019 13:13

I don't know anyone in my son's class prepping for the test next year. I won't he going through practise papers till may next year (test in September 2020)

DownstairsMixUp · 27/10/2019 13:16

Dandelion that's absolutely mental. She's 6! We've had schools here go from terrible, to good, to outstanding within the time your child will be in year 5! Also you could be saving and she still won't pass. Worse thing to do is to tutor the kids, you tutor them to pass the exam , that's it. They end up struggling if it was only the tutoring that got them through.

BeardedMum · 27/10/2019 13:22

It’s difficult to do well in the exams if you are not tutored. DS1 is at a grammar school. He was tutored and most of the students are tutored in some subjects for GCSEs and A level too. They are competing with other students from private schools/Eaton. DS1 needs AAA to get accepted to his degree so we top him off with tutoring in Two subjects to bring him up from A to A

SammysSpies · 27/10/2019 15:48

Well done on caring enough to have your child do the 11+ test.
I wish my mother had cared about education.
You and your child can always remember how well she did without having a specific 11+ tutor guide her through how to pass the test.
I had absolutely no help, tutors or extracurricular activities. I have a high IQ. I did well in exams. I put it down to having an amazing memory. I finished primary school just behind one boy in my class.
His mother did care about education and got him into a selective secondary school.
Whereas my mother forced me to go to the nearest school. She ignored how exceptional I was. I moved out the day after my final GCSE exam. I took my straight A's and got into a particular grammer school which did enable me to do the 4 A Levels I had chosen.
I got there from being in a secondary school that had a pass rate of 27% 5 GCSE's. Most of my friends weren't capable of getting C's in most subjects. Even with tutors.
Now in this Grammar school I got to meet those who did better than me in exams.
I stuck out when we did the UK Maths challenge (a bit like IQ tests) and I was the only one in the class to get a certificate which caused gasps since the girls knew how unusal it was to do well enough to get a certificate.
It is a multiple choice test which penalises you for getting answers wrong. I answered cautiously and that meant I got a better score than some of the most intelligent girls in the country. Those girls were far better than me in Maths. Some were taking 2 or 3 Maths A Levels. Even that wasn't enough for all of them who wanted a place to study Maths in Cambridge.
Having this grammar school on my CV meant sometimes job interviews were just a way for interviewers to probe me on how to get their daughter into that school.
I tried to set them straight that the school seemed lacking in funds. Their daughter will likely do just as well anywhere else if they are capable enough. Quite frankly, for my 4 A Levels one teacher didn't mark work or give feedback to any student. Another teacher was a bit of a drunk with a clearly visible bottle of whisky in her bag most days.
My secondary school had great teachers but mostly low ability pupils.
The grammar school didn't ensure their teachers were up to scratch. I have since found other grammar schools will give jobs straight away to those who come from certain schools - such as having a private education. Those schools cared more about pleasing the private school than whether the children got the best teacher for their education.

Pippin2028 · 27/10/2019 15:59

I went to an inner city deprived area primary, and due to family issues, I moved to another area when i was 12 with the rich relatives! My privately educated cousin was accepted into grammar and I massively failed the grammar school test (not 11+) and it was like the utter shame that I was in the local crappy comp, they used to make out to their friends I was in the grammar school! Education can be competitive and people will try what they can to get their children in the best area school.

Rominiyi · 27/10/2019 16:02

@DownstairsMixUp

Okay, don't tutor your kids then! And let's see what's going to happen! RGU's are asking for AAA, AAA and in the very least AAA on their competitive courses at A-Level, and a mix of A's and A's at GCSE.

I have no idea how people have got this idea into their long term memories that tutoring kids is damaging to them. In maths and the sciences it is not damaging at all. Once they know the fundamentals, they know them for life and everything they learn subsequently is built on a solid knowledge of the fundamentals.

Achieving such grades is proof positive that they understand the fundamentals to the max.

That is why they don't take kids with straight B's. They don't think they understand the fundamentals well enough to keep up with the workload at RG universities.

However, if you are referring to kids who were going to get F's, and they had private tuition which bumped their grades up to DEE, then of course they are going to struggle at university and the private tuition would have been of no use! They will not be going to an RGU.

Some kids have been known to do well with such grades at a non RGU, nevertheless. It seems they suddenly realise that they have been messing around with their entire futures, and sit up.

DownstairsMixUp · 27/10/2019 16:17

Wow you need to calm down lol! My husband went to grammar, so did his sister and both had no tutoring! My best friend's son just sat it and passed, no tutoring at all. I'm not from a grammar area so we didn't have all this. Sorry but I'd your kid needs loads of tutoring to pass it, they aren't grammar material! Yes fair play, few text books and past papers the 6 months occasionally up to the test but if your having to tutor them that much, it isn't for them. Are you going to continue paying for extra help when they get into grammar? Infact, my husband's best friend was the only one with a tutor so he passed the Kent test and then struggled all through grammar, he just wasn't good enough. Crazy you wanna put that pressure on your child! Honestly if she can't pass with some practise papers leading up to it, she shouldn't be going.

Rominiyi · 27/10/2019 16:27

@DownstairsMixUp

"Crazy you wanna put that pressure on your child! Honestly if she can't pass with some practise papers leading up to it, she shouldn't be going".

She shouldn't be going to grammar school?

She's at university studying Medicine ...

bigtotwig · 27/10/2019 17:07

@DownstairsMixUp It's not about unsuitable children needing tutoring to pass. It's about parents investing in their already bright children by paying for tutoring to guarantee a high pass.

My DD would have probably passed without tutoring, but I wasn't going to risk probably. We also needed a very high pass mark due to being out of catchment, so just a pass wouldn't have cut it.

And she wasn't intensively tutored, she had a lesson weekly or fortnightly for 10 months, as that's what the tutor advised she needed. The tutor also said, at the very beginning, that he would say if he didn't think she was grammar material, or if he felt it was only borderline whether she'd pass.

Good tutors don't want to take on unsuitable children, as they like to quote 100% pass ratios to keep them at the top of the lists. So the sour grapes bunch who keep repeating that loads of unsuitable kids get in because of intensive tutoring are, frankly, talking bollocks.

cjpark · 27/10/2019 17:16

Ive got to 2 DS at Grammar school and my youngest is off to Grammar next year. 600 boys sit the paper for 150 places. The local state school is failing. I paid for group 11plus tutoring for 9 months to the run up to the test at £10 a week. They needed it as they were not being taught the exam content until year 6.
Its about being reasonable - if your child needs years if tutoring and extra homework, they probably shouldn't be sitting it.

BadSeedsComeAndGo · 27/10/2019 17:23

YANBU. Years ago grammar schools drove social mobility. This is now no longer the case, and plenty of evidence was put forward on this point during Theresa May’s proposal to expand grammars. At this point the grammar system has become hugely flawed.

Birch67 · 27/10/2019 18:37

@Rominiyi thank you for such a thoughtful reply. A lot to think about!

irregularegular · 28/10/2019 09:54

Fantastic! Your child is learning a musical instrument, that's number 1. Make sure they do all the grade exams. Same goes for dance lessons. All that will greatly enhance their application to grammar schools, as well as their UCAS application

It really, really won't. Except in a very indirect way, for some children. Certainly it is the learning experience itself that may be beneficial. Not the grade exams themselves, which play no role in the grammar school admissions process and are of no interest to university admissions in the vast majority of subjects.

Quartz2208 · 28/10/2019 09:58

Rominiyi I think you are coming at it from a very specific viewpoint of your grammar application and from going through it they are all very different.

Music is a great thing to learn and often goes hand in hand with loving maths. It is also often highlighted as clubs at grammar schools and being good at it enables them to join in.

Very few state grammars will have anything enhance the application process apart from the tests. That said DD has done dance, practical and theory music exams and found the experience very useful in terms of exam practice

bigtotwig · 28/10/2019 10:48

It's more about what learning a musical instrument does for a child's brain development. That's the reason we thought music lessons were worth paying for, not to help directly with the grammar application. But, indirectly it is bound to have helped things like memory and reasoning.

Rominiyi · 28/10/2019 11:55

I am in total agreement with you all. Learning a musical instrument has a major positive effect on the development of children's brains and intellects. There is so much research online to prove that point. I have stated as much in a previous post on this thread as to it's contribution to the understanding of fractions, etc.

Children massively enjoy the experience, and also learn to work under pressure as per the grade exams, have a sense of achievement and play in their school's bands/orchestra/clubs, etc.

The fact that it may help some grammar school applications in certain cases is a spin-off effect, and is not the main to reason to engage a child in learning a musical instrument.

As per UCAS applications, my daughter filled in the highest level she had attained in the musical instruments she studied on her UCAS application. Their was a specific section for doing that.

That does not mean that she did not have meet the prerequisites of the course she is studying.

Anyway, no need for extensive argument or debate on this matter. We agree on much. I have been battling the 'inherent intelligence'/'innate ability''/'tutoring is bad for your child' brigade on this thread non-stop and my head now hurts. Smile

Rominiyi · 29/10/2019 08:41

It's been a pleasure @Birch67.

Two more things you should do -

Find out which libraries have children's reading schemes/programmes in your area if you have not done so already. They cater to all age groups, are very good, and will save you a load of cash in book purchases! Enrole your child on one such scheme.

You will also find that libraries are a valuable sources of information on all sorts of children's activities, from having a chat with the librarians to interacting with other mums. Find a library that has a section dedicated to young children and their parents only.

Make sure you lay your hands on a copy of the "Good Schools Guide 2019". The 2018 edition will do.

There is a Good Schools Guide edition that covers the entire country and, there is a Good Schools Guide that covers your region. Try and get the one that covers your region. The other one is just "too much information". You can get this from your local library or purchase it from Amazon.

This book is invaluable in supplying you with information on good schools in your region.

You have to read between the lines for some of the "Good" Comprehensive Schools mentioned because in that sector of schools some of their information, although up to scratch, needs a wary eye scrutinizing it.

However, in the grammar school, and independent sectors, they have more expertise.

If you are not interested in the independent sector just ignore all the independent schools in there.

Check out the Grammar school section on the Good Schools Guide website. You do not have to register on the site. It costs money!

Mumski45 · 29/10/2019 16:51

@irregularegular whilst music and dance exams may have no direct link to a grammar test they are extremely beneficial to children in that they put them in a situation where they have to perform at a specific point in time before it becomes important. My DD (now 31) did both and regularly tells me and others how well it prepared her for SATS and GCSE's as it gave her the mental resilience to cope when under pressure.

That is in addition to the 'brain training' benefits which @Rominiyi has already discussed at length.

I have 2 younger DS's now both at grammar school and I have followed a similar path to Rominiyi eg starting learning to read skills early. This above any thing else has been a big benefit to both boys as they hit the ground running at primary school. My Mum was a primary school reception/nursery teacher so I knew that most kids of 2/3/4 are capable of learning more than the current system encourages.

With regards tutoring I did have a tutor for both boys as we are OOC and the alternatives were schools in special measures or religiously affiliated schools for which we are the wrong religion so it was quite important to us that they score highly. With hindsight I think they would both have got in with just a bit of test paper familiarisation but we weren't willing to take that chance.

I totally disagree that a tutored child will automatically struggle at a grammar school. Both of mine are easily in the top half of their classes. However i have seen 1 or 2 boys who gain a place from the waiting list with a borderline score needing further tutoring to keep up so it does happen.

Howwlydufeel · 29/10/2019 17:17

Op even the kids with pushy parents, years of tutoring etc don't get in.

Some with very minimal exam technique work do. It's not fair but nothing is.
It's a test. If your dc are bright, have good understanding of nvr, and decent maths, exam technique etc they will be fine.

Tvstar · 30/10/2019 09:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EntropyRising · 30/10/2019 21:13

What does it mean to make the 150? Is that as in, an IQ?

TheoneandObi · 30/10/2019 21:38

TVstar I’m no fan of grammar schools or the sharp elbows it often takes to get your kid in (I lived in an area where the names and numbers of tutors were hilariously but jealously guarded) but crikey. Where did you go to charm school?

Baktic · 30/10/2019 22:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sammyp235 · 01/11/2019 22:51

@Tvstar

What a very bizarre response. Clearly your kids don’t get their academic abilities from you 😂

Point is hen, those that have been tutored so much, potentially take the places up (having unfair advantage) of those that don’t get tutored.

Hope your kids have their fathers personality traits too, otherwise they won’t get very far in life, despite the brains 🤣

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread