To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

[Sammyp235]

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

[Mac47]

Totally agree OP, but got called out on it in a recent thread!! It is unhelpful for the school, many kids cannot keep up unless continuously tutored to do so, which is so unfair on those whose could have got their on their own merits but not taught to test. And I speak as a teacher, but whose only child is in a special school, so no sour grapes from me at all!!

[C0ldtea]

God I get fed up with bleating about tutoring and grammar schools. So many parents tutor for everything now- Sats to get into top sets at comps and higher predicted grades, GCSEs to get into 6th forms for Alevels and Alevels to get into the best unis. Other parents spend money on music lessons, sports.....

Such is life.

[C0ldtea]

Many are tutored and don’t get in. Many very bright kids are tutored, it really doesn’t follow that you’ll struggle if tutored.

[beckymum]

I purposefully live in Kent for the grammar schools.
If you have an academic child I am grateful for them to receive academic instruction as good as private schools and to be surrounded by like minded children.
I know it doesn't mean they will be more "successful in life".
But we can't afford private and I want them to be taught the breadth and depth of subjects they would get at private school.

[Davespecifico]

Did you do any Bond type books at home? If you’re not doing tutoring, you still need to get them familiar with the format and give them practice to build us their speed.

[Sammyp235]

@coldtea I agree with that such is life.... but the difference here is there is a set number of places so there is direct competition between tutored and non tutored kids. GGSE A-levels etc aren’t competing directly with each other in a particular setting.

Oh and I’m sorry you’re fed up with all the the grammar school threads but I’m new to MN so I’ve no idea if it’s been done to death 😳

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

the rest just had a few practice sessions at school beforehand
Really? Because I thought that was expressly forbidden. Assuming that it is a state primary. Maybe different counties have different rules, but when my DDs were at primary (2013 and 14) in Kent, their state primary was most certainly not allowed to do even a run through of the exam conditions let alone practice papers. They wouldn’t break the rules but knew a couple of primaries that did , the thinking was they were risking all of their candidates being disqualified if found out. At that time the Kent test definitely included non verbal and verbal reasoning questions in a format that wasn’t taught in the normal course of events and so, frankly, it was hardly surprising that tutoring occurred. It wasn’t the selection by academic achievement that was wrong, it was the mechanism of getting there in the first place that was inherently unfair. Every year our school got five or six candidates in to the best grammars in our area, and that was a state school that, during my DDs time there, had dropped in to special measures and then dragged itself back up again. Very few of them had anything approaching tutoring. I always felt those children deserved their places tenfold.

[ColaFreezePop]

For those who don't have grammar schools then it's simply a case of moving house to ensure you are in the catchment area of good comprehensives as not all comprehensives are equal.

Likewise while the comprehensive maybe good for 11-16 education you may have to move for post-16 education.

The education system in this country has been and is a joke. If you don't have money and/or don't have savvy parents you are screwed.

[NailsNeedDoing]

Why should our taxes pay for children who are already from a privileged background to have a higher standard of education than others?

You realise that grammar school parents also pay tax right? And that while the children may have some privileges in that they're unlike to be in poverty, money doesn't shield children from everything they could possibly go through that disadvantages them? Like coming from homes where there's abuse, illness or disability of parents or siblings, bereavement, unhappy divorce or plenty of other things. And although statistically they're unlikely to be in poverty, that doesn't automatically mean they're rich either.

[Jinxed2]

It’s ridiculous nowadays. When I went to grammar school there was no tutoring! Our local one has stopped restricting how many kids can come from out of catchment area, meaning less local kids end up getting in (and horrendous traffic).

[Welliesandpyjamas]

It is frustrating, OP, when you hear how many of the children from the local private school are getting tutored for years before the 11+ ...makes it seem far from equal and fair. But there are also lots of very able and not so rich and untutored children getting in so that’s good, they are not going to struggle once they are in to grammar school.

DS2 opted not to take the 11+, he was getting too anxious about it and didn’t want to go to an all boys' school (our local grammars are gender split). Shame because he is very bright and with his way of thinking would have excelled at the questions style in the 11+ but he will do just fine in any other school.

What has interested and amazed me in the last few days was the amount of social media from some families about their kids passing the 11+ ..I hadn’t realised how much status is associated with it! 😄 This year the girls’ school decided not to inform the families what the scores were because of the competitiveness, and yet the braggiest fb family from ds’ class still pursued their DD’s result from the school and put it on social media 😂 no modesty!

[Sammyp235]

@coldtea Just seen your other post. What I mean by those that are tutored to help them pass, may struggle unless they are continuing tutored. They may not of course but they may. If a child passes without any help at all and does well at school then it’s likely they will be fine at a grammar school.

If however you have a child that has been tutored for a year to give them the edge (fair enough) then if that tutor is no longer there, it would be fair to assume that they may struggle on their own as the helps been taken away.

[Welliesandpyjamas]

*social media bragging

[BristolianBangers]

Pretty much all the kids around here who apply for grammar are tutored, some for years. I don't know what you could do about that really.
My oldest DC didn't want to try for grammar so i will be going to the local (good) comprehensive next year. However my youngest, who is 7, has already say they want to do the 11+ as their friends are (who have siblings who are already there). I've bought them some Bonds books to do now, to see if they actually enjoy it and can manage them, and then yes I will have them tutored in year 5 if they are still keen at that age.
Yes I know that it will put my DC at an advantage over those that can't afford to be tutored, but though they are bright, they are not top notch gifted ru be able to get on without specific directed learning. So if they want to go down that route, I'll support them.

[Snuffkindle]

Agree with other pp - the schools shouldn't tell parents and kids that they don't need to practice the tests. There is a technique to them that can only be got by practicing. We are poor, I couldn't have afforded a tutor,.but I did buy the practice papers and from Easter onwards we did a test a week. That was enough to get my kids in. A bright kid from my son's year didn't get in because his mum believed the school hype that preparation wasn't necessary.

[Pannalash]

Hold on OP you say that you feel the system is ‘unfair’ yet you’re kicking yourself for not organising tutoring for your DD, make your mind up.

[BristolianBangers]

Oh and the primary schools around here don't do any kind of grammar prep. I assume they aren't allowed.

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

I can’t believe how many people deny their children have a tutor

It isn’t fair but I still would have down the same and got ds a tutor if he was attempting to get into grammar school because I want the best for him

[pikapikachu]

It's not possible to have an even playing field. Parents can have the child baptized or buy a house near a good comprehensive to play the system too.

Tutoring is needed because the 11+ is a style of exam that state school kids won't be used to and includes material not covered yet in maths. Depending on the area, private school kids will have learned NVR etc for the 7+/8+ not to mention possibly have 11+ teaching at school. Once they get to grammar, they get the same teaching, assessments etc as the private school kids so the advantage of private primary should diminish over time.

[LittleDancers]

OP if you have friends who are private tutors I'm really surprised you're surprised that kids are tutored . Also as you live in a grammar school area obviously, I'm surprised this hasn't come up over the years in general chat with the other school parents.

Also tutoring doesn't guarantee a place. The raw material has to be there in the first place.

I have to say it sounds like you wanted your DC to win a place with no tutoring at all on principle rather than not knowing about tutoring as an option/an option a lot of other people openly take, as it does sound like you've had the necessary information about tutoring being an option and chose to not take that option.

I hope though that your DC does get a place though. March is when places are formally offered and things can change between now and then x

[whiteroseredrose]

Grammars are hugely unfair, create divisions that are unnecessary, reduce social mobility and provide worse results overall compared to non selective systems.

Trafford?

[C0ldtea]

The tutoring is for exam technique. The exam is so fast you need to be good at maths and have a very good vocabulary. You can’t buy that.Tutoring won’t make much difference and all offered a place will be very capable.

And re tax payers money. Grammars get less money and offer more bang for the taxpayers buck. I don’t begrudge those that never read to their kid and cost the taxpayer money in catch up. I get annoyed that my area gets so much less funding than other areas. Now that is unfair.

And re settings. Tutoring for top comp sets, 6 th form places and uni places is just the same. There are a set number of places. The tutored are taking places from others.

[Ariadnepersephonecloud]

It's a shame but generally a lot of what is in the 11plus exam may be things they haven't covered in school when the exam is given! Also whether tutored or not the children who secured places now have that knowledge, that they learned for the exam. This doesn't necessarily make them any more or less bright as, as far as I know, the 11plus is not an intelligence test. It's a knowledge test. My daughter was one of three friends to sit the test, I know the other girls well and felt all three are equally intelligent, however my daughter scored highly enough to get a place while the tiger girls did not. Nothing to do with their intelligence, just what they had learned.

I guess I'm saying, it's an exam, my daughter revised for it for two hours a week for sixth months before. If I had an exam I'd revise. I wouldn't go in assuming I would have the knowledge.

[Loveislandaddict]

My two dcs both were tutored for the 11 plus. Why? To. Prepare them for the test. It contained verbal reasoning, non-verbal reasoning, and maths at a higher level (year 7 and 8) then what was taught in schools. Also, it helped them prepare for the exam itself. Ie. Practice papers under exam conditions.

[Actionhasmagic]

I guess some people just do whatever they feel they have to. Doesn’t seem like the best system but where i grew up there were no grammar schools at all