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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

570 replies

Sammyp235 · 17/10/2019 20:39

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

OP posts:
Delatron · 20/10/2019 15:36

I would say in our area (Bucks) well in my town about 80% would be tutored for the 11+ and it very much is those kids who stand a chance of passing the 11+ as I think it would be pointless tutoring if they weren’t in with a chance of passing.

DS1 is dyslexic and not great with working memory so no tutoring and no 11+.

DS2 is top sets so in with a chance of passing. Therefore, we are tutoring as most others are round here. I would feel I wasn’t giving him the best chance if we didn’t tutor. They go over exam technique, comprehension, vocabulary etc. It helps but if he didn’t have the raw talent then I wouldn’t bother. There are a few very bright children who could possibly get in without tutoring. If you have a borderline child then you want to give them a good shot at it.

Irisloulou · 20/10/2019 19:57

I think lots of posters are unaware that not all 11 plus exams are the same.

We live in a super selective, without catchment. Takes the top 3%-5%

Less than a minuet per question, they do not have time to work out new concepts, or advanced versions of things they know.

It tests the entire year six curriculum. They need to be taught it before the exam.

whiteroseredrose · 20/10/2019 19:58

Sorry for not replying sooner. Just come on holiday.

We're in Trafford. DC's school was not an academy (still isn't) and wasn't the only school in the area to offer it.

The new(ish) head offered the sessions. Her predecessor hated the Grammar schools which begs the question why she chose to work in Trafford!

Panicmode1 · 21/10/2019 16:29

I've just spotted this on Facebook - and they've even quoted what I said..

www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/angry-mums-rant-11-plus-3448411?fbclid=IwAR1Qx9SFEg-Qyx96cedYxy0cthFEkxIWj3cyI8Ag9ws_mKrVxpQ0M1mT8c4

TanyaChix · 21/10/2019 18:11

cecily p Except it wasn’t. The 11+ in most areas from the 1940s into the 1960s consisted of 3 papers; English, Arithmetic and General Intelligence (verbal reasoning).

It absolutely originally was designed to be like this. I did post-grad research on it (I was a deputy head of a grammar school). It became criticised because it failed to do what it was initially intended to do, which was measure intelligence as opposed to prior learning. Not wanting to derail the thread here but I think it’s pertinent to the initial concern that many 11+ entrants now benefit from extra tutoring for it.

CecilyP · 21/10/2019 18:26

No, I think it’s relevant. An intelligence test only tests intelligence if the candidate comes to it cold. Spending months practicing similar tests, and it also becomes a test of prior learning.

TheoneandObi · 21/10/2019 18:34

Completely agree OP. The only consolation you have is that your naturally bright child may yet get offered a place and will rise to top of the pile. And if not, s/he’ll be fine in the local comp because of s/he’s bright. I speak as a parent Of two comprehensive educated kids who went to Cambridge and somewhere else v specialist and high performing. And their comp was rubbish!
Try not to worry. You’re right. But try not to worry

catyrosetom2 · 21/10/2019 18:36

The 11+ may have been designed as a test for general intellect but even when my mum went to school, schools prepped kids for it. They were unfair from the start and still are, and I am glad I don’t live in a grammar area.

TheoneandObi · 21/10/2019 18:40

Me too! Glad we don’t live in a grammar area! In fact we moved out of a grammar area when ours were in late primary school and weirdly into a fully comprehensive area.
Maybe that was subconscious! Of maybe we’ve always been bolshy!

bigtotwig · 21/10/2019 19:15

As i mentioned earlier in the thread, my daughter has been in the top one or two of her class all the way through primary school. We tutored for 10 months weekly/fortnightly purely to guarantee a place. She is easily bright enough to pass, but being out of catchment, we needed her to be one of the highest scorers. We spent less than £600 in total, so not a huge amount.

I don't believe that kids can be not at all bright enough, but tutored to get in (either the super selectives, or those requiring highest score due to being OOC). To get really high scores, a child must be super bright and must have something for a tutor to work with.

With the current system, which I agree isn't a fair one, parents can either tutor themselves or hire a tutor, but you do need commitment (and/or money) and a bright child to work with in the first place. The parents I know whose children are below average academically or need extra help in class have not even considered their child sitting the 11+. People only do it if they believe their child has a serious chance of getting in on their own merit. Tutoring is more about making it a dead cert.

There does seem to be a lot of sour grapes on this thread. Everyone agrees the system is unfair. But if everyone was being honest, they would totally tutor (personally or paid for) if they felt their child was bright enough, if the only alternative is sending them to the local sink comp or sec. modern.

I do feel for the OP that she believed it when the school said tutoring wasn't necessary, but any online research would show you that it really is.

catyrosetom2 · 22/10/2019 11:03

In my non grammar area the comprehensives are not sink comps, they are just comps - good ones too because there aren’t grammars so everyone sends their kids to them, unless they go private. The private schools round here are particularly expensive so in fact most people don’t unless they are super super well off.

I am not blaming parents for tutoring but I do blame a system which makes parents feel they need to tutor.

Yamyamdad · 22/10/2019 21:57

Please back up this "statistic"

Yamyamdad · 22/10/2019 22:00

If your kid is not cutting the grade...tutoring will not help, tutoring will merely help you tread water unless you are already smashing the exams! Simple. People love making excuses. Learn to love your kids for what/who they are!

OutOutBriefCandle · 22/10/2019 22:10

Urgh...its hard. Grammar school is meant for naturallly academic kids. I think a problem in our society is 'academic' is prized above all other skill-sets. Hence why way too many kids are going to uni.

If Grammars were working as they were meant to, there would be plenty of working class getting in - because, of course, working class kids are no more or less intelligent than more privileged kids.

Tutoring etc results in kids going to grammars who would be happier / do better elsewhere. I went to a grammar and there were several girls (who got in on appeal) who really didn't enjoy the experience - and who, might I add, are flying high in non-academic fields.

Sammyp235 · 24/10/2019 00:34

Just seen that we’ve made it in to the local press in two different places with this post!

😂

OP posts:
Tvstar · 24/10/2019 06:44

My 4 dc go/went to a gs that selects on VR and NVR. They didn't have tutoring but worked by themselves on a pack of 4 papers on each. That is all that is needed to familiarise oneself. The system works well in that the school has an extremely high value added score as it should if it is successfully selecting on academic Potential. It is the top performing school in the whole of the North of England.
There Is a lot of tutoring that goes on but they don't all pass. Tutoring preys on parental fears. It is not a necessity.

Rominiyi · 24/10/2019 13:53

@Sammyp235 Would it be unfair for your friends who are private tutors to tutor their own children for the eleven plus?

If they have children, they would just give them the full works regardless of if they thought their children were Einstein, and regardless if they thought it was fair or not. How would you know, and why did you not think about that? They have expertise, and they were you telling something valuable ...

My daughter had loads of private tutoring for the eleven plus, despite the fact that we invested heavily in her education and activities from an early age. Could not at all afford prep school. I really wish I could have.

So, I teach biology, chemistry, physics at GCSE, and chemistry and physics at A Level.
I have worked as a supply teacher at over a hundred comprehensive schools. What I saw going on in the gross majority of those comprehensive schools as per the sheer chaos and mayhem, is the reason I have only one child, and the very reason that one child went to a very highly selective girls grammar school. And, one of the reasons my marriage broke down. I was never going to risk another child having the faintest chance of attending a comprehensive school in the face of what I had seen with my own eyes, and in the face of a shortage of financial resources. I was put under immense pressure from my Ex, Ex's family, my family, and Ex's freinds, from within and without the UK.

I also tutored one GCSE student in physics privately, his sister at A Level physics, and two other students at A Level chemistry. They all did very well indeed, and the A-Level students got into the universities they wanted to go to.

When it was my daughter's turn to sit the aforementioned exams, I just pulled out all the stops eight months prior too, and we did the full works, which was in addition to the huge amount of work she was bringing home from school.

She needed A's to get into the schools sixth form, she got A*'s and one A. She needed similar requirements and even more to get into her RGU. She's now there.

I was also providing answers to her friends queries, in some cases written, for no financial gain, as they were her friends and it did not even come into my mind to do so.

I also know that some of her friends had private tutors in Maths at A-Level in the very least, and probably in other subjects as well.

I do not so much believe in natural ability as I believe in starting kids on an all inclusive age appropriate educational experience from the age of four.

Everyone says my daughter is intelligent and have being saying it for years, to the point where she has come to believe it herself. I have taken great care to point out to her every now and again, that her "intelligence" is as a result of the advantages she has consistently received from a very young age.

Why? Because I want her to realise that intelligence is cultivated, not innate, so that if she wants a child in the future, she knows she has her work cut out for her. She is going to have to engage that child in an all round inclusive educational experience from the age of four. Of course we'll help.

I for one have learnt my lesson not to have any more children though. Not enough money ... do I want my child to go to one of the over one hundred comprehensive schools I have worked at?

Maybe one, in Harpenden (I live in Barnet). There are four other Catholic Girls Schools I would not mind if push had come to shove, however, those schools are no where near where I live except for one, worse still I am not Catholic, I am atheist. So it would depend entirely on the catholic schools disposition to such people. I might find it uncomfortable going to church listening to a sermon, though I love listening to church music and I love church architecture.

So desperate is the situation as regards secondary education in this country, some people have been known to change their religion. I don't blame them. Do anything it takes ... The government is not looking out nearly enough for everyone's child's education.

Get involved in your child's education, move house if you have the money, change your religion, get outside help, do anything you know of that I have not mentioned here, your child will thank you in the future, especially if they go on to have children of their own. Then they will really know what it's like to be a parent in the face of a sinister education system: Telling parents they do not need to prepare their children adequately for the 11+, their child does not need a tutor ...
OMG, ... and more importantly, nowhere near enough at least good, talk less of excellent comprehensive schools to serve even a fraction of the population.

Education is the most important thing we can bequeath to our children.

In summary, would you condemn me for tutoring my own child. Is it so unfair to do so? Who was to stop me? How would you know? I could just tell my daughter never to mention it, no one would be the wiser ... even the government would not know!

So if I can teach my daughter the subjects I know of, what would be unfair in parents who do not have the knowledge in those particular subjects in engaging outside help for their child. You think they should not do anything at all if their child is struggling, and leave it to "natural ability"?

I can't believe you??? You are forgetting the fact that when children have learnt a concept to the extent that they can readily apply it in any situation, it then becomes part of their "natural ability", and people perceive them to be intelligent. No one, no one cares about how their facility with the concept got into their heads in the first place, except perhaps, people doing PhD research into the "development of children's cognitive faculties", if that's what that area of research is known as, Idk. Or, perhaps their parents who may be amazed that their child is indeed intelligent after all, and subsequently take an interest in how the tutor is going about undertaking this conversion.

I never knew people exist on the face of this earth who have set their faces against private tuition ... it is never, ever going to be gotten rid of! That much I can foretell ...

LizziesTwin · 24/10/2019 14:02

One of my friends had their daughter tutored. He left school at 16, so did his wife. They are successful and have their own house now but neither has great SPAG and they work long hours. I completely understand why they do whatever they can to improve their daughter’s opportunities. Their daughter is in yr9 now and doing really well.

Rominiyi · 24/10/2019 17:35

@stucknoue

"It's completely unfair but the sharpest elbows get the places. Be thankful you have state grammars though, none here so it's pay for private or send to sink comp. we did the latter, so dd missed over a year of school due to the horrendous disruption (set school on fire etc"

ROFL I couldn't stop laughing ... I have seen it all before. They set fire to the gas taps in the science lab! That was at two different schools in London ...

EntropyRising · 24/10/2019 18:37

Rominyiy I salute you. Wine

Rominiyi · 24/10/2019 21:05

Thank you @EntropyRising

irregularegular · 24/10/2019 21:44

We did have a bit of panic the weekend before the test as we hadn't bothered to look at practice maths papers. We'd assumed that the maths would just be primary school maths. Whereas we knew the VR and NVR would be different from questions DS had seen before so worth a look at in advance. Suddenly discovered there was algebra on it which he hadn't done at all so needed a bit of a crash course! Not terribly fair I thought. Anyway, he survived - and apparently there wasn't much in the way of algebra anyway.

It is totally possible to get in a super selective with minimal practice and no formal tutoring. Though admittedly it may not be the best approach if the result really matters to you. I've never come across anyone try it without even looking at a past paper. Why would you?

Sammyp235 · 25/10/2019 00:33

@Rominiyi

I mean that’s your view of the education system and that’s fair enough. You have gig experience working in those schools so that I can not argue.

What I will say I find rather strange, in the way you find it rather strange that someone wouldn’t use a private tutor.... (although surely it’s understandable that not everyone can afford to pay???) that you say you chose to only have one child, because you wouldn’t want to go through the stress of sending a second one to comp?

I mean theses placing emphasis on how important education is, but that quite an astonishing view to hold imo and places way over and above on education.

Regarding the concept of intelligence not being a natural aptitude but rather something that comes with practice, again I find that notion quite shocking too.

I’m not going to go in to the definition of intelligence on mumsnet, although I did get 75% for my degree coursework on my IQ assignment and why I disagreed with the tests 😂

Joking aside, of course people have he capability to get to a certain level but for some it’s easier than others. Some people just seem to soak up information and can accurately use it when needed, others not so.

No I don’t blame people for using tutors but I’m annoyed that the website said there’s no need. As stated some will have 6 past papers to look through before the test, others will have 2 years worth. Of course the schools can’t know who’s been tutored and who hasn’t.

I know another child who did have some sort of group tutoring for about 3 years and she didn’t pass. She cried and was so sad that she felt like she had failed. I felt the parents had put so much pressure on her to pass that she thought that was it, her chance of becoming successful was gone because she failed it. I find that so sad, but the reality is, done kids won’t pass regardless of how much extra tutoring they have, because we’re nit all at the same level intellectually.

If intelligence isn’t innate then why don’t all the kids in a class of 30 get the same marks? Why are they put in sets on ability, if ultimately they are learning the exact same thing so why are there marks not the same?

An ‘average’ (graded) child could benefit from a tutor and that would take them in to the higher level bracket and help them pass a grammar test. A child who struggles would benefit from a private tutor to help them achieve average. (Grades).

OP posts:
Sammyp235 · 25/10/2019 00:35

Their* daft autocorrect

OP posts:
AhNowTed · 25/10/2019 00:55

Haven't read the whole thread but here's my experience.

Daughter sat the exam for one of the top girls grammar - happens to be where we live.

I downloaded a few papers beforehand and got her to complete a few. In my naivety i thought this was enough.

We sat through the open day and it was an eye opener. Talks from parents with 2 or 3 girls in the school and they made no pretence that their kids were seriously hot-housed, not for months but for years.

There were over 900 applicants for 80 places.

Needless to say she didn't make the cut.

My daughter is clever but there is no way we were prepared to put her through years of intense study for this.

In the end I'm glad and so is she. My daughter went to the local comp where she excelled. She was a winner. Her teachers thought she was great. An A student. She got serious attention from her teachers.

She went on to her chosen uni doing a subject that she loves.

Had she got into the grammar she would have struggled, felt under huge pressure and the outcome may not have been so good.