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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

570 replies

Sammyp235 · 17/10/2019 20:39

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

OP posts:
Rominiyi · 25/10/2019 13:10

@Sammyp235
"you say you chose to only have one child, because you wouldn’t want to go through the stress of sending a second one to comp?

I mean theses placing emphasis on how important education is, but that quite an astonishing view to hold imo and places way over and above on education"

Well, I do not think you can imagine a classroom environment in which a large number of children or sometimes a few, have such disruptive behaviour that they consistently manage to turn the class upside down such that the well behaved children learn absolutely nothing.

The disgusting behaviour of the disruptive children is something they have brought into schools from their dysfunctional backgrounds. Schools have found it next to impossible to exclude these dysfunctional children for x number of reasons.

I have been in several schools where I have quietly told one or two well behaved children in a class where their education was being severely compromised, to tell their mums to move them to another school.

When I returned to those schools and to my shock and horror the well behaved kids were still there in the same classes, I asked them why they were still there. They said they had told their mums. Some said their mums had tried to move them but could not. My heart sank ... If I had some sort of supernatural power I would I have moved those children myself immediately.

So, I have exercised the only supernatural power I have to ensure any potential child of mine will not end up in such a situation by having only one child, who went to a highly selective grammar school, however, you have found this quite astonishing.

The stress of those good children in those comprehensive schools induced massive stress in me, talk less of it were my own child in any of those situations. I would just have a heart attack.

"Regarding the concept of intelligence not being a natural aptitude but rather something that comes with practice, again I find that notion quite shocking too ...

If intelligence isn’t innate then why don’t all the kids in a class of 30 get the same marks? Why are they put in sets on ability, if ultimately they are learning the exact same thing so why are there marks not the same?"

Some parents have already enrolled their kids in age appropriate phonics classes, maths classes, and music lessons way before they start in primary. They have bought phonics and maths software for their children to playing with. They have taken their kids to the library and read to them frequently. Some children's parents are primary school teachers, or know primary school teachers. Primary school teachers are experts are developing their child's intellect pre-school.

If you start learning a musical instrument at an early age you will have a head start in maths, as you will rapidly develop many areas of the brain which will facilitate learning in the future, not least your grasp of fractions which will facilitate your learning of decimals later on, etc. Some children learn two musical instruments.

Parents who expose their children to all these things do not wait to find out if their child has "innate intelligence" before deciding to invest in the child's future or not. The child just grows up to be highly intelligent.

By the time such children start school they are already way ahead of their peers sitting in the same classroom as them.

Since all this costs money, some people then decide to have only one child, as the child is going to continue be heavily invested in throughout their educational career engaging in multiple age appropriate activities as time goes on. Another child will just lead to the division of time and reasources, of which most people except the rich have limited amounts.

Children who go to some prep schools do not at all sit in classrooms of 30 children for a start. And some children go to pre-prep ...

By the time any of the above format of child reaches secondary school the gap between them and their peers has become humongous and unbridgeable.

In my daughter's primary school, only one other child's parents were doing the same. So my daughter went to a super selective girls grammar school and the boy went to a superselective boys grammar, and that was it out of a class of 30 children.

The boy has an older sister who went to a comprehensive school. I asked their mother why the girl hadn't gone to a grammar school and she said that they were not aware of all the preparation that had to be done. By the time they realised it was too late, as a result she did not pass the eleven plus.

I do sympathise deeply with the situation regarding your daughter. Hopefully she has good comprehensive school to go to without children with dysfunctional behaviour, and is streamed to the highest sets while you await news on the grammar school front.

Don't leave anything to her "innate ability" as you have a degree yourself, which means there are certain subjects you can help her with. Keep an eagle eye on her end of term/end of year reports and respond accordingly. If she starts slacking as all children do, sit down and do the work with her until she starts doing it herself again. Don't let her lag behind one jot, and if you can, organise at least one extracurricular activity for her if you haven't done so already, it will make a massive difference ... .

The problem is this whole state grammar school business is somewhat secretive to people who have no idea they should be keeping a watching brief on procedure and timing. It has not been your fault. So relax a little!

If you do all this, then you will be like the hard headed people on this thread who's children went to comprehensives and still ended up in RGU's

Highfivemum · 25/10/2019 13:58

O know where your coming from. One of my husbands work collègues who is very well off. Couldn’t decide between private and grammar as he could pay but didn’t want too. He then had his DS go to a private tutor for a year in order to pass 11plus and get a place a t a grammar sch that wasn’t even in catchment.
11 + is unfair.

bigtotwig · 25/10/2019 14:05

@Rominiyi I couldn't agree more! I didn't have the best start in life and I attended one of the comps you describe. It absolutely wasn't cool to be clever there.

This has made me very determined to ensure an excellent education as a way to give my DD the absolute best start in life. She is our only one too. I have always researched how we could provide the very best circumstances for her to do well, without paying for private schooling.

We're not wealthy, but we've always read with her every day, music lessons from the age of 5, Maths Factor online for 10 minutes every day up to Y3 when she finished the KS2 curriculum. She's done lots of other extra curricular activities too and we always knew we'd pay for a tutor for the 11+. It was the tutor himself who suggested 10 months tuition was plenty. Our DD's education has always been prioritised, planned and supported.

EntropyRising · 25/10/2019 17:22

I don't get what's so shocking about limiting your number of children so as to spread your resources around fewer denominators.

We're not supposed to be having big families anyway - there's something like 12 good years left. Wink

Rominiyi · 26/10/2019 09:39

Precisely @bigtotwig ... Well done!

Zipppyx · 26/10/2019 09:51

So would that not make GCSE/A Level tutoring wrong also?

'If you need tutoring for 2 years in a subject, you shouldn't be doing it at all.'

Teachers are not perfect. The majority of learning happens outside of the classroom. You will learn this when your child gets to GCSE and when the majority of students who are able to afford it will be engaged in tutoring simply to keep up with the syllabus.

MsMustDoBetter · 26/10/2019 09:56

They should get measure inherent intelligence, no amount of tutoring could effect the result. Would make the system much fairer.

ooooohbetty · 26/10/2019 10:54

But you don't know if the children who were tutored would have got in without being tutored. They might have.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 26/10/2019 16:10

So school intake based on intelligence is not unfair? What about hard workers? Our school work to growth mindset - children are not written off because they struggle with something or don’t pick something up straight away.
What if an intelligent child goes to a primary with poor teaching? Shouldn’t they get tutored to level up?

Rominiyi · 26/10/2019 19:38

@MsMustDoBetter

So what tests have devised to measure there "inherent intelligence". You want to stick their heads in an MRI scanner while asking them questions. Or better still take their brains out, stick electrodes in and measure the potential difference across. Then put their brains back in.

I think that you will find that you are the only parent who will agree to that in order to prove by all unnecessary means that your child is more intelligent than everybody else's child, and has been cheated out of a place according to your thinking.

Rominiyi · 26/10/2019 19:56

@MsMustDoBetter

So what tests have devised to measure their "inherent intelligence"? You want to stick their heads in an MRI scanner while asking them questions? Or, better still take their brains out, stick electrodes in and measure the potential difference across Then put their brains back in?

I think that you will find that you are the only parent who will agree to that in order to prove by all unnecessary means that your child is more "inherently intelligent" than everybody else's child, and has been roundly cheated out of a place according to your thinking.

MsMustDoBetter · 27/10/2019 05:28

@Rominiyi

You ok hun?

Have you heard of Mensa and IQ scores? I believe that this can be measured with pencil and paper tests.

Birch67 · 27/10/2019 07:16

@MsMustDoBetter

There is a lot that IQ misses - curiosity, creativity, application to do the work and emotional ability to engage with taught work.

The ability to apply yourself, work hard and see results is an experience I want my child to have. The idea that you are 'naturally bright' and deserving is hugely damaging in my opinion.

TartanTexan · 27/10/2019 07:24

@Birch67 you are spot on and those these have all of the attributes you list often do very well. Average intelligence and all those attributes will often take a child further than a ‘naturally bright’ child.

TartanTexan · 27/10/2019 07:25

‘Those THAT have all the attributes you list’.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 27/10/2019 07:26

birch is right. My daughter's doing very well academically, her friend needs extra support at school to do the option 1 tasks but is a brilliant artist and excels at sport. Also when she joined the school last year her ability was of a child two years below but our brilliant school gave her loads of one-to-one support and she is now operating at current year’s level albeit doing the first option in her tasks.

Dandelion1993 · 27/10/2019 07:33

My eldest dd is only 6 and September born.

I'm already saving up for a tutor for when she gets to year 5.

In my local area, the good schools are grammar schools. There's one decent one that isn't and I just don't want her going to the awful schools with the awful children.

She's bright, but I don't want to risk it.

Blueoasis · 27/10/2019 07:36

Eh it won't change ever, even if we close all grammar and private schools. People will still use tutors to get to the best unis.

You shouldn't feel bad though for not pushing her. More parents need to stop pushing their kids and forcing them to study non stop. I know of several kids who are tutored, barely get to have fun, get their hobbies taken away for more studying. They are going to go off the rails once out of the cage mummy has built around them. Probably won't make it through year one of uni. Waste of money and time then.

Rominiyi · 27/10/2019 07:56

I apologise @MsMustDoBetter. I thought I was responding to @Sammyp235, the OP.

"Have you heard of Mensa and IQ scores? I believe that this can be measured with pencil and paper tests."

You can practice massively beforehand for IQ tests via various media, books, websites, apps, etc. Verbal and non-verbal reasoning are prevalent in IQ tests. Same goes for 11+ exams. It is only those who pass the "IQ test" that are invited back to sit the english and maths exams.

So, the "IQ test" whittles down 3000 applicants to 300. And the English and Maths tests reduce the 300 left to the 100 final intake. That's the school I am familiar with, it could be different elsewhere.

Therefore, 11+ exams are a test of IQ and much more besides.

The only way things are going to get any fairer is if the government undertakes a massive expansion in setting up grammar schools, which I would support.

TheoneandObi · 27/10/2019 08:49

Blue oasis I really don’t recommend tutoring to get into the ‘best’ universities, certainly not in terms of bumping up A level results. Anecdotally I have a lot of friends who have done this and whose children have struggled. Shockingly high drop out rate in fact within a very small cohort. Yes tutoring helps with the Oxbridge tests. But I’m afraid it’s best to do the long haul of A levels yourself.
Like I say, anecdotally, but if I wanted to bite you I could come up with a long list....

Birch67 · 27/10/2019 08:51

@Rominiyi what early support would you suggest for success at school? DC is learning a musical instrument and we do a bit of extra handwriting and maths. Also worth mentioning that DC has a very normal, happy childhood and is next door turning bed into a rocket with DH.

MsMustDoBetter · 27/10/2019 09:30

@Birch67

I think you're right about those qualities, but how do we make the system fair and accessible to deserving kids wiithout the means for tutors? The Grammar System (and indeed the entire education system) needs to be founded in equality of opportunity.

Birch67 · 27/10/2019 09:45

@MsMustDoBetter
I think the idea of 'deserving kids' is a bit of a flawed one. Hard work is just as important or more so than natural 'ability' imo. As an adult I see plenty of 'bright' people languishing as theyve never had to apply themselves. Their lives at 30+ look very different to 16/17.

Well, you can always tutor yourself. Or schools could offer extra classes so students and parents know how to prepare.

Blueoasis · 27/10/2019 09:56

@TheoneandObi

Oh nor do I. But I know people who do it, and they literally stop their kids having hobbies to do more tutoring. It will end badly of course, but the parents think they are doing the best.

Sportycustard · 27/10/2019 10:11

I'm in a grammar area and I'd say you're probably going to get a place OP if you wait it out. My son's grammar has an entry of 160 but there's usually about 20 or so places come up after allocations due to people opting to go private anyway plus the usual divorce, redundancy and relocation moves. You'll probably also find that some parents on the waiting list opt for private too so you may well move up.

My son's primary HT advised us to tutor my son as the 11+ in our area covers things that aren't in the primary curriculum before Y6. He's also autistic and has social anxiety and would only perform to his ability if he knew what was happening. We paid for an hour a week and three mock tests.

He's top ten in his year for three subjects so it isn't the case that pupils who need a tutor aren't suitable for a grammar school.

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