To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

[Sammyp235]

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

Ds did a (group) lesson a week and a pratice paper everyday of the summer holidays.

The whole thing is unfair.

Not just because of tutors.

If you're a family with parents of a high level of intelligence that can work with your child to prepare against a family with parents who are not of the level to prepare a child.

If you can afford a tutor.

If you can afford the uniform.

If you live closer in the catchement.

It is a very unfair system that they try to make as fair as possible with the 11+ to get the top kids. The school can't do anything about it. And often hate the fact that kids who have been over tutored to pass them struggle when they're there.

But you said grammar schools are full of such kids. They’re not.

@coldtea

Well obviously I didn’t mean every child in every grammar school was hot housed.....

I don't think you do need to employ a tutor, as long as a) your DC is bright and b) you do practice papers at home (and mark them, so I guess c) you or someone in the home is capable of doing that). Being able to complete the paper in the allotted time and get a good mark at the end is key. The English paper is particularly tight with only 30 mins for comprehension and 30 mins to plan/write/check a short essay.

I can't find the bar chart I'm looking for, but it shows grammar schools have expanded 30% in recent years. They are creaking at the seams. They have no need to take students who can't keep up. Which means the fact that many of them are trying to improve their admissions arrangements and tutor proof their tests is probably coming from a good place.

Like them or loathe them (they are unpopular on Mumsnet for sure), they are very popular.

I am not sure when state primaries were told they may not prepare for 11+ but it was the 1990s I think. I was surprised when I realised this as it obviously disadvantages children whose parents are not knowledgeable/interested.

Dd wasn’t tutored and she got on.
From her experience many of the tutored kids

a) were far behind and ended up in the lower sets, and
b) didn’t put the effort in as they’d done what they needed to by getting in.

Either way many of them didn’t have the great experience she had.

@Andysbestadventure. Problem is. Your child will be the lowest of a very high class. You’ll struggle for the £1000 per uniform (if you’re just passing by with schools fees) the insurance. The £5-11,000 trips they take. The lunches. The bus system. Unless your earning above 85,000 a tear and pay no more than £900 on rent. And £70” in bills. It’s going to be very tough.

Kids get picked on when they are the poorest of the class etc. Trust me. I was that child.

“ I was surprised when I realised this as it obviously disadvantages children whose parents are not knowledgeable/interested”
But allowing primary schools to prepare kids for the test would automatically destroy the argument that it is an untutorable test of potential.
And also, what would the rest of the class be doing while the 11+era were being coached?

And your dd knew they were tutored and how well they did at school how exactly?

At my dc’s schools we know so many who did a bit in the run up and are thriving. We’re talking on course for 8s/9s. Some incredibly bright children.

This tosh that tutored kids fail is absolute fabrication.

t’s only Gove who thought that ‘every school should be achieving higher than the national average’
That's my point, you don't need to desperately seek a school above average to ensure that your academically able child gets to achieve to its full potential.

The main difference is not so much the teaching and certainly not the attention given to the pupils. As a matter of fact, those who have high ambitions are given a lot of attention because they are less of them then in a grammar school. What these schools like is the experience of the system to support children in getting places in Oxbridge/Medicine etc...

Teachers in my kids' secondary and 6th form schools offered these pupils extra tutor time after class and during the holidays. Their dedication was outstanding. They did it because they really wanted these kids to succeed with their ambitions because the majority of kids had no idea what they wanted to do.

I do think 'average' schools are too often dismissed with the assumption that they can only take academic kids so far, but my experience is that those who were expected to get As because they showed the ability to get them, finished their education with these grades.

In fact considering a good work ethic is part of being high achieving I’d say most of the high achievers I know did something.

This is nothing new, it was going on when I was 10/11 years old, some 50 years ago.......

But lonely being the only 1 or 1 of 2 of that type of ability in your year in a comprehensive school. Also not very challenging, but thats ok because the presence of that 10% improve everyone else's grades....

It would be like any other differentiation, surely, Bertrand? Arguably primaries should be teaching the more advanced maths, reasoning etc to the higher ability DC whether or not they're applying to grammar? That's what my DD's school does, anyway (not state though).

I pay for a tutor for my kids and they are just at a bog standard school. Tutoring isn't unusual and if children can achieve with the extra support I don't see the problem.

@coldtea

Why you taking it so personally? Sounds like your kids go to a grammar school and they were tutored and your happy with that! That’s fair enough, good for you.

No one is suggesting YOUR child won’t do well, what people are saying that there is a worry that those that have been hot housed will not be able to keep up. People have said on this thread that it’s evident when they’ve worked in grammar schools etc.... certainly not all of them as many would have passed anyway, but it’s easy to see how some would struggle without the constant intervention. It’s not complete tosh, for some that will be their reality.

The child has told everyone and is proud of the fact. Kids talk and also a parent who is a mutual friend of the the other two parents.

It’s tosh because tutored kids vary in ability. Many many who don’t need tutoring tutor. Many who aren’t grammar material tutor and fail. Posters saying their child know all the tutored kids in a massive school and their grades is complete fabrication.

Also kids who need tutoring to get to the level required if in a good primary will be very unlikely to pass.

NonTraditionalFeelings
I pay for a tutor for my kids and they are just at a bog standard school. Tutoring isn't unusual and if children can achieve with the extra support I don't see the problem.
.......
There isn't one, I've known people pay for extra tuition in one subject, eg French, in which the child struggles a bit but needs at least a pass at GCSE (that used to be C, don't know what it is now). That seems fair enough to me.

Loads tutor for Sats, GCSEs,Alevels and 11+. I see no problem in any or any point whining. Tutoring is bigger in other countries and is here to stay.

@C0ldtea

But no one is saying all tutored kids only get there because they’re tutored. Many of them would do it without the extra tuition I’m sure, but the ones who are hot housed are questionable. These are the ones I’m talking about.

These are the ones that may struggle and that place would have been better placed on a child where they are naturally more able.

It’s the same old though, life isn’t fair

@C0ldtea

Tutoring is here to stay I agree, but if every child was privately tutored, only the true clever ones would secure places at grammar schools!

But you are inferring grammars are filled with them. Read your own title. If you don’t think they’re full of them what is your problem or the point of this thread?

I was a single parent with a salary below the national average and getting some benefits. My daughter, very academic girl was in an 'inner city' primary where the teaching was lax and teachers spent most of their time managing behaviour.
She felt unchallenged in most years, and spent year 5 bored stiff.
For these reasons I wanted her to have a different opportunity for Secondary, so cut all my expenditure to the bare minimum, so I could pay for tutoring.
Life would have been easier if I didn't have to, but it was too important to gamble. She had an hour's tutoring every week for four months, and thankfully passed the 11+.
I agree the system is unfair, but until then, you just have to do what you need to.

Your second post shoes that it's yourself you are most angry with. Your naievity at not knowing you could have done with a tutors help.