To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

[Sammyp235]

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

@Zeldasmagicwand

Erm not sure how any of this is ironic? It would seem you’ve not read all my posts so I’ll make it easy.

1. DC passed 11+ on a waiting list. No tutoring.

2. Kid in same class passed and got a place but he’s had 3 hours a week with a private tutor plus his uncle helping as he’s a teacher. They really wanted him to go to the grammar school.

3. The school website specifically mentioned that they do not need to be tutored. I took this as gospel.... this was a mistake as clearly many people do get tutored.

4. I now feel bad that I didn’t give my darling the chance. I believe that if she’s had a years worth of practicing she would have been given a place.

My fault really for being naive. I just hope anyone in the same situation as me doesn’t make my mistake. Not all the children that will have passed that exam would have done it with intensive training and that’s what I find not fair on those that can’t afford it etc....

Any yes for all the reasons you state. Much in the same way there’s the hierarchy of universities. RG being up there.
Not ironic one bit!

YANBU at all OP, what an odd thing to assume that tutoring is the ‘done thing’ for grammar school. The 11+ isn’t supposed to only be appropriate for children of wealthy families. If they require tutoring are we saying then that their primary school is sub-par when it comes to teaching our children?!

If grammar school is for gifted children - they don’t need tutoring. If it’s for wealthy children - then they will get tutoring regardless of their aptitude. So which is it? I think we all know.

(I did 7 sample questions I found online earlier and got 2/7 )

Bertrand: "Why do these people’s children not have as much of a right to a chance at grammar school as Mumsnetter’s children do?"

WHO exactly is taking away their right to a chance at grammar school?

Yep it's a joke. That's also why a lot of primary schools where there are local grammars are also so high achieving, not because of success of the school but because the kids have been hothoused.

Saying all that, I'm surprised that you weren't aware of this before your child sat the entrance exam.

“ WHO exactly is taking away their right to a chance at grammar school?”
Well, if it was a test of potential. And if the playing field was level as so many grammar supporters claim then nobody. As it is, society, the system and their parents. HOW exactly is that the children’s fault?

Because if you have a system that is supposed to give disadvantaged kids a step up out of disadvantage, it’s a bit of an own goal to make it inaccessible to disadvantaged kids, isn’t it?

“Grammar (for those who want to learn) is the bees knees and kids will do better there than in the local comp, hence the desperation to get in”

And yet overall, the results for fully grammar system Kent are no better than comparable no-Grammar counties.

I have experience of kids in two ‘local comps’ now and my kids have been keen to learn, been happy and done well in top sets.

In Grammar areas the ‘comps ‘ or high schools are missing the pupils in the top 25% of ability, so will have obvious differences. Many teach fewer languages, may not do triple science, or Further Maths, or whatever as a result if not having the critical mass to support the investment in the course.

Why is the comprehensive school always ‘the local comp’ in such dismissive terms?

Ok, OP, I'll make it easier to understand why your post is dripping in irony.

You are complaining that Primary aged children who are tutored get an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE when it comes to getting a place in a Grammar school over naturally bright kids that aren't tutored.

👍 Thats entirely correct. 👍

But why do you want your children to go to a Grammar school?

You want them to have AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE over the children from the local Comp when it comes to getting a job or a place at University.

Exactly camping. A pp upthread stated ' no grammar here so it's private for us' or words to that effect. WTAF?! As I've stated before in Scotland we do not have a grammar system ( not since the 60s) and both I and my 2 eldest DC did/ are doing excellently in the comprehensive system. DC1 predicted all A/A* in National 5s( GCSEs) this year and I went to university and everything! Isn't it amazing what the working class plebs can do?!!!

The threads about schools on mn are so remote from my experience in real life. I live in an area where there are no grammar schools, primaries are usually quite good, but secondary schools are not great, just about national average for most, with only 10 to 20% above.

Yet, all those I got to know, through my kids, from poor to rich backgrounds have done well, the vast majority has gone to study at uni, Physics, Maths from top Unis, Medicine and Vet Medicine, law and a few in Oxbridge. Clearly some kids clever enough who have managed to do well in average schools.

Surely every school will still have a few able pupils who will get top grades and go on to great careers, the difference is that there won't be as many, but if a child is naturally academic, they are highly likely to do well wherever they go because their teachers will support them to achieve their potential.

@Zeldasmagicwand

You’re post doesn’t even make sense. Your logic is without reason. It seems you’re just wanting to pick an argument! 🙄

My child’s grades at the local comprehensive school will not impact another child’s grades. Whether she she gets 10 A’s or 9 F’s will be irrelevant to another child. They will have an equal chance if no one is tutored privately.

The Grammar system is flawed. As already stated, it was advised they didn’t need extra tutoring......

I believe she could manage the grammar school without any extra support and if that’s the best school around here, why would I not give her the chance to see if she can pass it? She did, with no help and now it transpires that it’s absolutely the done thing.

The whole concept of a grammar school was to enable the brightest students (that don’t need continuous support) access to what is considered a better education, regardless of the social economic status?! As we know that’s not necessarily how it’s panned out in reality and those that are wealthier secure the places. Should I say that the the majority of places go to well off middle class kids, many of which pay to facilitate their child to pass..... that’s not an option for those from poorer backgrounds.

I want my child to go to the best school. I never said I didn’t!

@Zeldasmagicwand

The difference is, it’s not an unfair advantage if they gain a place through their own doing because they are top of the class (not necessary my child but any child in general). That’s based on ability and not finance....

Well, if people want their kids to go to a particular school, they'll do all they can to get them there. I think extra tutoring is fair enough.

In our house we have to prioritise where we spend money. Currently we r prioritising swimming lessons over extra tutoring for DCs as I value sport and DS1 in particular has an apptitude for it. Who knows, when he's in year 5 maybe we'll decide to drop the swimming a bit and spend money on tutoring instead. Or take out a loan or re-mortgage, if for some reason DCs wants a particular school and we think it would be a good fit for them.

Not sure what the issue is.

(By the way, I passed 11+ for a full fees private school scholarship, without tutoring, back in the day. Half the kids applying to that school most probably had tutoring - but the head of your school was right - it isn't always necessary. Kids can and do get places without tutoring, but some might need tutoring, and some who may not need it might have it anyway so their parents can feel that they've given it their best shot.

I think tutoring has been a long known about thing.

Hope your DD gets to the top of the wait list soon

SwingOfThings “secondary schools are not great, just about national average for most, with only 10 to 20% above”

But wouldn’t you expect a school with the full range if ability to match the national average? As you say, the overall ‘average’ includes kids who are off to Oxbridge and medical school as well as those needing lots of support and a slower pace to pass basic qualifications. So 10-20% above national average is doing really well, surely?

It’s only Gove who thought that ‘every school should be achieving higher than the national average’

Your child’s grades will impact places in top sets at comp which carry advantages and will also impact places for 6th form college. Tutoring for Alevels shoe horns places in the best unis.

The system is unfair, but it's understandable that it would be 'gamified'; in an ideal world the test would be tutor proof and therefore would look at potential/core skills. It's obviously not possible to do that. Some parents (not all) enjoy the kudos of their children attending, some want the confirmation that their kid is attending the best school for their education in order to get a head start in life, and for some that school is the best place for their child. So far so normal, if yes unfair from the ideal of an equivalent education provision for all.
The 'truth' - a mix of all the above, some kids with thrive, others won't. Studies have shown grammar schools have a negative effect on overall social mobility. That won't stop parents wanting them. However some kids will thrive matter where they are, in education or life down to factors such as resilience and emotional intelligence. It will take schools/the education system longer to embed those skills in the curriculum. Comp or grammar? No silver bullets either way.

Also being good at primary spag, mental arithmetic which anybody can improve on, barking out text and producing immaculate writing doesn’t make you the brightest. I’m not sure op why you feel your child is more deserving.

Also a good work ethic is hugely important. Kids aren’t expected to just be bright.

YANBU, but it's just the way of the world. Parents want their kids to get ahead, and they're willing to pay for it.

I'm a private tutor, as well as a class primary school teacher, but not the 11+ as it's not done in my county. There is still a large demand for private tutoring in my large town, and parents are happy to pay for it. And while there is still a large demand, tutors will carry on doing it.

The idea that kids that had tutoring g to pass the 11 plus to keep up at grammar is laughable. It's not rote learning.

@C0ldtea

My child will be fine. She’ll do fine at school and she’s quite looking forward to the local comp.

I don’t think my child is more deserving than the next, in the same position. I think I’ve whitened the grammar school entry saga first hand and didn’t realise how far people are willing to go to secure their child’s place.

Paying for a few sessions of tutoring instead of buying CPG books, music lessons, sports clubs or exotic holidays is hardly going to lengths.

Ds was tutored for the 11+ he got in to a superselective boys' grammar off the waiting list with a very borderline score. He has just passed GCSE maths with a 9 a year early and is in top set for maths ( they only set for maths). So IMO the tutoring was test familiarisation and plugging the gaps in a "good" state village primary. I have no doubt it is right for him.

Being superselective the school takes the top 5-10% rather than 25%. Ds is in the top 20% of that cohort. So top 1-2% of population in terms of mathmatical ability. To have 30 children of a similar standard a comprehensive would need a year group of 1500 to 3000 (assuming normal distribution).
That's why we need grammar schools.

To give high potential DCs a peer group and the opportunity to learn at an appropriate pace.
I think that 11+ preparation should happen at school, but in the absence of that....

All primary schools should teach pupils what they need to know to pass 11+ or equivalent, as well as enrichments. Unfortunately a lot don't do that and it's beyond me why not.

Sorethroat is a fine example of someone who did well without extra tuition and there are plenty of others including me and mine - but we all went to schools with good, dedicated teaching before taking 11+. If I had a young child, that is what I would look for in a primary or prep school.

@C0ldtea

I’m talking ‘hot housing’ practicing. 3 x hour sessions with a private tutor for years....

Not the odd few sessions and practicing at home... 🙄