To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

[Sammyp235]

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

“it is simply a fine tuned method of streaming.”
Well, two things here. Yes it is streaming, which is generally considered a bad idea- just because you’re good at one thing doesn’t mean you’re good at another. And it’s not fine tuned streaming if it is rigidly imposed for the next 5 years based on a child’s performance on one day when they were 10.

Setting, on the other hand can be fine tuned- but you need a comprehensive school for that.

Irony much?
You're complaining about the advantages of children who have been tutored to pass an exam to get into a selective Grammar school.
Why are you so keen to get them into grammar school?
Is it because you know that there are proportionally more places at University for children who went to grammar and private schools?

You're obviously happy to avail of the obvious advantages when it suits you personally.

camping yes if it disrupts the rest of the class. I'm being realistic.

Don't the schools have to allocate some of the places to disadvantaged dc anyway.

I'm glad the students you work with are doing well

Bertrand it just allows for more finely tuned streaming. As I said, my dd is in set one (of six) for nearly everything at the secondary modern, despite my ds being significantly more academically able, he couldn't go any higher than her set at her school. At the grammar, there will be another 4 levels of streaming, on top of the 6 at my daughters. If they were all crammed into 6 instead of 10, it would be less finely tuned. There are others in my dd's class that passed the 11+ but choose not to go to grammar, or who chose not to take it- but they are then in a much wider ability group than they would've been.

And of course there is still room for movement. My dd didn't start at her school in sweet one for everything, she's worked her way there, subject by subject. She could just as easily go down if needed. Same will happen for my ds. On top of which, if needed, they can always change schools! I've known lots of people do this into or out of grammars over the years.

It's simply not true that they are locked in for 5 years!

Every time I see one of these threads I think thank fuck I chose to move to East Sussex and not Kent when we moved down south.

You might change your tune when your DC hit 16! Lots of East Sussex students att Nd the Kent Grammars for sixth form due to the lack of provision in East Sussex.

attend that should say.

Surprised you're surprised people tutor.

Anyway, I came on here to say that I think a neutral examination of the statistics would show that grammars are accepting Pupil Premium students who pass the test (sometimes a lower score is required too). The grammar I worked at was able to give them good academic support, as they were relatively few in number so the PP funding went a long way (I know it is per individual but I suspect it vanishes into basic needs support in some other types of school).

The actual issue is the PP families don't apply, and why would they, when the state primaries aren't allowed to prepare the DC or even tell them grammar is an option.

I have also worked in a free school sixth form that had high academic admissions criteria and there were abundant applications from low income families because the admissions criteria were transparent and the students were old enough to apply by themselves.

Going back to the gramnar, there were maybe one or two students per year group (of 180) who weren't up to grammar standards and more ethnic minorities than in the local population.

Sounds fair enough, if you pass the exam it shouldn't matter if you've been tutored or not. Some parents have tutors for their dc others don't.
If it seems unfair then that is the system, it's always been unfair. Where have you been.

Been and done sixth forms, plus there was no way on earth my daughter wanted to enter a selective system. She disagreed with the grammar school system.

I didn't rate the Kent sixth forms, not enough choice of subjects.

The other thing to say is that there is a stigma attached to free school meals (however tactfully handled). The grammar head used to have to beg annually for parents to do the form if it applied. There may be more PP at grammar than it would appear (I am not saying the intake isn't broadly middle class...of course it is).

I'm glad she found sound something that suited Petra. I taught a lot of students from East Sussex who wanted a more academic track and whose schools only went to 16.

Not a fan of grammar schools but like any exam you are going to do better if you have practiced the papers before.
The first time you see any kind of exam isn't usually when you sit the exam, working through past papers is the norm surely?

Thankfully that wasn't a problem. Excellent academic results from the sixth form attached to the school.

I absolutely agree, but had to put my morals to one side because i didn't know anyone with a child sitting the 11+ who didn't have tutoring. I compromised by only doing it since the end of January, whereas most of my sons peers had been going to tutors since at least September.

When my parents went to grammar and even NY husband 30 years ago, the 11+ was just done in school and no one knew when it was, and everyone did it. Much fairer. But sadly thats not how it is now, and i can't see anyone putting their child at a disadvantage if they don't have to.

My sister and brother went to a grammar school. Both were tutored for the 11+, to say that we came from a privileged background is laughable. They had an hours lesson a week at around £18. My parents were not able to help with past papers etc. As they wouldn't have understood them. Both were clever anyway but verbal reasoning is not taught in school and the tutors were able to prepare them in terms if exam technique. Both did well as their prospective schools. I don't see what is wrong with giving your child every available chance to succeed. My parents had one wage coming in and had to forego things to help pay for tutoring. I went to a failing comp and had to learn a lot of the curriculum off my own back. I now live in an area with no grammars and cannot afford private schooling so will help tutor my kids myself.

It is a tough system and there will always be people who will do more, tutor more etc, but my "looked after" little boy passed the exam with nothing but a couple (literally 2) past papers the weekend before. His looked after status only made a difference once he had passed the test, and then it got him the same qualifying status as local children.

I am dead proud of him, he was removed from his family before he was 5yrs and has had other disruptions and turmoils associated with the care system, but he has been with us 3 years now and he is a bright, happy and caring child. He deserves his one small advantage considering the problems he has had in his live due to the actions of adults

Phineyj that bodes well for my ds on pp. my dd gets incredible additional support for hers at the secondary modern, I was concerned that might not have any impact at the grammar

My DS had tutoring for the 11+ (private and grammar). He was offered places at both.

In hindsight he didn't really need the tutoring just some exam technique practice.

BUT I am so glad he was tutored as it filled in the many many gaps left by his state primary especially in maths due to very poor maths teaching (DS often had to correct his teacher) and he actually enjoyed it as he was being challenged in a way he wasn't at his primary.

You don't need to pay for an 11+ tutor, it's very easy to do it yourself with the help of books and past papers which are easily found online.

I would recommend every parent tutored their child prior to moving to secondary school even if they won't be sitting the 11- just to make sure they are 100% confident and secure in the 3 Rs.

11+ not 11- 😯

No, it also relies on a parent who is not, for example, an alcoholic or drug using chaotic individual, a single mum with another child who has high needs (eg disability ) and works shifts, parents who are not yet English speakers, a series of foster carers some of whom are in it for the ££ (oh yes, it happens), experiencing MH problems etc etc.

States are built on the assumption that children have parents who are at least a bit invested. Why do we have such disengaged parents in the UK?

I just find it incredible that grammar schools still exist. It's ridiculous in this day and age.

You can be invested, but still not able to support your child through the 11+. You may not have the time, the education, the knowledge, the confidence, the language, the time, the space.......

Not to mention the physical or emotional energy. And that is before you get to the parents who are proper feckless.

Why do these people’s children not have as much of a right to a chance at grammar school as Mumsnetter’s children do?