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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think sectioning shouldn’t be done lightly

252 replies

User5022 · 09/10/2019 05:55

Eg used because an adult decided they didn’t want to rest of a treatment. I always assumed it had a really high threshold.

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 09/10/2019 10:27

It sounds upsetting for you OP, but sectioning isn't done lightly.

Refusing life saving treatment for an overdose because you don't like being in hospital raises questions about her capacity.

Mental illnesses take over a person. Think about people with anorexia. They dont want treatment and will actively try to get around treatment, hide, lie, deflect etc to avoid eating. It's the mental illness talking and if the clinicians let the anorexic patient say "oh actually I feel well enough to go home and I'd rather eat there" then they'd be being negligent because all their clinical training will tell them about that illness.

Someone who has taken an overdose and wants to leave life saving treatment saying they want to go home is an issue where they could discharge and have a suicide on their hands because the patient decides to make a stronger attempt Vs get the support.

They are trying to keep her safe.

x2boys · 09/10/2019 10:28

I'm not getting into a discussion about wether people should be allowed to take their own life or not Got a this is not what this thread is about,however sometimes people can feel suicidal when they are in crisis and it can be a temporary feeling ,Sectioning someone is ( usually ) a last resort when there is a belief that Someone is an immediate danger to themselves or others .

MrsMaiselsMuff · 09/10/2019 10:29

Being at risk of immediate harm to yourself (or others) is grounds for sectioning.

Whilst there is overlap, an MHA assessment is not primarily concerned with capacity. Most people sectioned have capacity in most areas (capacity is assessed on a decision specific basis), they are detained due to risk.

x2boys · 09/10/2019 10:29

Tot*

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 09/10/2019 10:40

The last thing sectioning is done is lightly.

Even when someone has had a diagnosis of schizophrenia for over 20 years, has previously been both sectioned and imprisoned as a result, is known to both mental health services and police to be a danger to themselves and others. Even then a family can spend months pleading, knowing they are off their meds and them not be sectioned until it is too late.

I know because that person is my brother in law. He is currently being held indefinitely in a maximum security mental hospital because he stabbed two people.

Sectioning is not taken lightly. Ever.

ashtrayheart · 09/10/2019 18:54

My daughter has been sectioned since she was 14 and she is now 22.

At one point it was so hard to get her the help she needed despite the danger she was putting herself in, Social services had to instigate court action (with my agreement) for her to be put in a secure children's unit in lieu of hospital! She was later re-assessed and sectioned thankfully.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want your daughter to finish the treatment she needs, paracetamol OD can be devastating to someone's organs Sad

fantasmasgoria1 · 09/10/2019 18:56

I had nac but I had 24 hours worth.

Aprillygirl · 09/10/2019 19:18

On the contrary it is very difficult to get someone sectioned. The person has to be considered a danger to others or themselves and even then it's not easy.

HappyHammy · 09/10/2019 19:22

Maybe they couldn't assess her mood, mental state and risk if she didnt engage with them. They are just doing their job which is to keep her safe. Hope she feels better soon and gets home quickly.

100PercentThatBitch · 09/10/2019 19:30

The bed crisis has got to the point now nationally that your daughter will not be put in an acute bed without a lot of evidence that there is a need.

Also people who manage to get a bed and definitely need one can lose it within 48 hours if there is someone deemed more in need of the bed than they.

It's not lightly done at all they would rather not section your child

OhTheRoses · 09/10/2019 21:17

To be perfectly honest 100Percent that isn't entirely true. A&E depts across the country are admitting teens to acute beds, usually voluntarily but with the threat of safeguarding complaints against the family if they dissent, sometimes for 72 hours, because camhs only work 9-5 on a spectacularly disorganised basis.

CAMHS refused support for my dd in 2015, when she was cutting and taking small ods. she had a tiny crisis in 2016 - trigger exams when she went to A&E after taking 9 antistamine and a swig of benylin. She went to A&E more than 24 hours later. She was safety netted by a consultant psychiatrist privately. The hospital did not call me for 4 hours meanwhile persuading her to be admitted for a camhs review with a 1:1 mh nurse pending review the ext day. The dr told me she was fine, bloods normak, just routine and it was all just a protocol, oh and I ad given my permission for the matter to be referred to ss. I had not.

DD wanted to go home, and when I put my foot down it was discovered she could be assessed age 17 in A&E. This was put in place. The mh nurse said she was good to go, the dr had said she would be good to go if the mh assessor said so, the mh assessor checked with the camhs on call psych who said she was good to go.

Four hours after Ibarrived we had still not been discharged and when I told the ward sister we had been messed about enough and I expected it to bed sorted in ten minutes I was screamed at across the dept that I was causing a safeguarding issue and obstructing my dd's care and if we left she would call the police. 20 minutes later we left and there was a complete volte face after the dr's had eventually conflabbed.

Guess what? CAMHS promised therapy within a couple of weeks when they assessed on the following Tuesday. They then moved the goal posts and didn't think anything was necessary for 12 weeks. Fortunately dd had a private psychiatrist and was diagnosed, reviewed, and counselled at a cost of c£6000. She recovered.

The NHS continually whined about lack of resources but had £900 for an unnecessary admission necessitated because supposedly highly trained staff did not know what assessment facilities were available at their own hospital. The NHS also had funds for three assessments to confirm dd didn't need their mediocre counselling.

So for all those saying drs and nurses always know best, they don't actually and neither are they always knowledgeable or do they always have the patients interests ahead of their personal backside covering.

And finally, the twit of a camhs nurse when I called the day after the psychiatrists meeting where the adhd diagnosis was confirmed said upon being told with a little laugh "well now mum I think she's a bit old to have that at 17".

Whilst I don't think the op was right I can well imagine the potentially poor standard of communication. I also do not think at all that a&e staff always get it right, always treat people with respect and always know more than the parent and don't get me on the subject of the complete incompetence of camhs.

It seemed to me there was a lot of moneyvsloshing about to support camhs inflexible working practices, for endless assessments to justify why interventions could be delayed and for £900 acute overnight admissions when there were alternatives available.

This is Surrey. It. Is Not. Good. Enough When the system stops wasting money it can tell me there are insufficient resources.

OneHanded · 09/10/2019 21:31

I threw myself off the eighth floor of my work multi storey and wasn’t sectioned because I was safe to be discharged home physically and mentally with out reach in place. It’s really not.

100PercentThatBitch · 09/10/2019 21:40

I was speaking of adult not CAMHS services @OhTheRoses and have seen it firsthand

User5022 · 09/10/2019 22:14

Thank you for all replies. She’s still very upset about the section and not keen on the ward. They sectioned her because she didn’t acknowledge the damage she could have caused. They also said if she couldn’t comply with the treatment that she was unlikely to comply with the day hospital treatment. She’s seen the psychiatrist here today and he’s said he won’t be taking her off the section today.

OP posts:
NativeAustralian · 09/10/2019 22:27

Sectioning isn't done lightly at all! Far from it in my experience. My friend exhibiting the most bizarre psychotic behaviour due to manic depression didn't get sectioned for two weeks despite being hauled off into hospital numerous times by family who begged them to. They all knew how it would end up as it happens regularly. By the time they did section her, she'd spent thousands of pounds, attacked people, lost her job and was thinking people were demons out to kill her.

NoSquirrels · 10/10/2019 00:25

They sectioned her because she didn’t acknowledge the damage she could have caused. They also said if she couldn’t comply with the treatment that she was unlikely to comply with the day hospital treatment. She’s seen the psychiatrist here today and he’s said he won’t be taking her off the section today.

Sounds perfectly reasonable.

Psychiatric wards aren’t ever going to be somewhere particularly nice to be. Your DD needs to make sure she’s engaging with treatment as fully as possible now. Flowers

maggiecate · 10/10/2019 00:45

She’s in a safe place now so try to use this time to get some rest if you can. It’s really important that you take care of yourself.
There are many, many families going through what you’ve experienced and there are support services and charities that can help. Mind have lots of good information, and Rethink have local support groups.
I know you want to get your girl home, but it’s crucial that the right support is in place - for both your sakes. Don’t say no to anything because you think ‘oh we can manage’- it’s much easier to get help while she’s in the system than further down the line.
If you need to talk remember Samaritans are available 24 hours - they will listen if you need to vent xx.

Aveisenim · 10/10/2019 01:02

It is not done lightly. In fact, it's incredibly difficult to get medical professionals to take action when it's needed, unfortunately, I know this from personal experience and it has been the case for the 30 odd years!

If they have refused treatment for an overdose then it could potentially kill them and they have to act to protect the patient from harm. Don't be so glib about 'only 4 hours'. It's not 'only' anything. Angry

Mummaofmytribe · 10/10/2019 01:09

If my son had been sectioned again when he needed it, he might still be alive today.
I know you're beside yourself and your DD is probably scared and furious. But please - think of the alternative.
Better she's in a psych ward than the funeral home.
I wish you both well.
Parenting a young person with mental illness is relentless and terrifying.
Don't minimise things to try to make yourself feel less frightened. You have to really accept what's going on with her.
And don't collude with her that she's being mistreated. Very unhelpful. Better to say you're as devastated as she is that it's come to this but it's necessary and you don't want her in danger. Repeat this gently but firmly. Don't reinforce the "them vs us" narrative.
Best of luck to your DD. And fgs try to take a bit of time out for yourself to cry and let it all out.

OneHanded · 10/10/2019 01:13

Seen your updates op I’m so sorry that they’re treating her as such. They’re not taking into account the negative impact it can have and that’s sooo important in terms of ptsd but it sounds like she has the list important thing here and that’s you having her back. You honestly sound like the most supportive person and that will make all the difference; please do make sure you get any support you need too - Carer’s support for example should be available.

OhTheRoses · 10/10/2019 07:13

How old is your dd op?
Keep her back, keep loving her and be her advocate. You know her best and what she needs. Make sure her stay is as optimal as possible. And I would visit as much as possible. It keeps staff on their toes imo.

Toomanycats99 · 10/10/2019 07:22

It is a high threshold - I speak as someone with a relative going through it. I suspect there is more to it than just refusing to finish the treatment as my relative has done this a number of times and not always been sectioned.

I would think they have more general
Concerns about safety and that is just part of it.

User5022 · 11/10/2019 22:55

Mummaofmytribe So sorry to hear about your son. ):

OP posts:
User5022 · 11/10/2019 22:59

I’ve been to see her twice since admission. She’s still Adamant that she shouldn’t be here. They couldn’t accommodate her younger aged under 18 brother visiting which upset her as she’s very close to him. She was very upset then the psychiatrist came pass saw it happen. He then informed the staff that she wouldn’t get any leave at the weekend...which she is desperate to have..a member of staff was very patronising to her in front of me and said “the psychiatrist has just seen your behaviour and he’s not happy” this was repeated a couple of times. I kind of feel they aren’t trained in autism which is making it even harder for dd.

OP posts:
MatildaTheCat · 11/10/2019 23:11

She’s only been there an extremely short time, weekend leave could scarcely be safely offered, surely?

You may we’ll be right about the understanding of her autism but equally don’t underestimate their understanding of risk where suicidal intent has been so clearly demonstrated so very recently.

How many bereft parents say the warning signs were missed?

You are torn between wanting the best for your DD from her narrative and then again from the narrative of the staff. That’s hard but keeping her safe matters most. While she is there you may be able to raise the issue of her autism and its impact on her MH.

Good luck.