To think sectioning shouldn’t be done lightly

[User5022]

Eg used because an adult decided they didn’t want to rest of a treatment. I always assumed it had a really high threshold.

Does your DD have a diagnosis of autism, OP?

I’m so sorry it’s so tough for you to know what the right thing is. But she’ll be safe where she is and hopefully you can advocate for her - but you do need to focus on what is possible rather than what would be the ideal.

It isn't done lightly in my experience. I was a witness at an inquest where the deceased's family had been desperate to have him sectioned, but he was deemed not to merit it.

OP, has she got an IMHA? If not she should ask for one. Which relative did they speak to when they detained her? She can appeal to the hospital managers and is entitled to a tribunal and should ask about both of these as soon as possible.

It may be the best for her but it may not be. Those rights exist within the law because the Mental Health Act isn't perfect (far from it) and inappropriate detentions happen all the time. I think it's fantastic that you want to advocate for her and there are lots of resources to help you. To start-

www.rethink.org/advice-and-information/rights-restrictions/mental-health-laws/mental-health-act-1983/

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/sectioning/about-sectioning/

It's awful that so many people in this thread have felt let down by mental health services unwilling or unable to intervene but there are as many instances of the opposite being true.

Every time my mum was sectioned she didn’t think she needed to be in either. If she wasn’t in, she would have certainly been dead on a number of occasions. You sound massively in denial. Yes the ward is probably a horrid place to be but she ishpuld he safe.

I’m not sure why they couldn’t allow a visit from her brother though. Children visit people under section all the time otherwise parents would have no access.

I think it's awful/frightening that people are so quick to write the OP off as in denial/naive.

Tribunals over turn sections all the time. People get massive pay outs for being unlawfully detained and vulnerable people are detained in completely inappropriate settings with alarming frequency.

I think it's awful/frightening that people are so quick to write the OP off as in denial/naive.

OP hasn’t really given much detail to say either way.

But a suicidal 18-year-old refusing life-saving treatment for a paracetamol OD is probably best placed in a psychiatric unit until stable.

But a suicidal 18-year-old refusing life-saving treatment for a paracetamol OD is probably best placed in a psychiatric unit until stable

Case closed then. I don't know why we need a Mental Health Act at all when these things are so easily judged.

They don't in my experience UglyGlass I was a mental health nurse for 20+ years and have never seen a mental health review tribunal over turn a section and I have attended many, particularly when professionals all.agree a person should remain on a section.

I said “probably”, UGV. And the first part of my OST acknowledged the OP hasn’t given enough information (you might even say has been deliberately vague at times) to make a judgement.

As I’m sure you know, it’s a very complex area. I’m only saying on the basis of this thread a suicidal 18-year-old who has OD’ed on paracetamol and then refused treatment and failed a capacity assessment is probably in a safe place. OP needs to advocate for her DD if she feels it’s not right, of course.

With more detailed info this thread would be more helpful to OP to know if it’s out of the norm.

x2boys

Something like 30% (of those that ask for tribunal) are discharged prior to the hearing.

With more detailed info this thread would be more helpful to OP to know if it’s out of the norm

Sorry for being arsey but it just makes me really sad/angry that so many people are willing to tell OP she is wrong and in denial seemingly without any consideration that her daughter may actually be being treated unjustly.

I mean even if detention is the only option OP should be being encouraged to advocate for a move to a more appropriate setting.

Not ime Ugly ,but tbh we don't know what's going on on i.i worked in acute mental health wards for years I know they sent the nicest of places but in view of the bed crises in this day and age ,they try to hold off admission unless absolutely necessary as there just arnt the beds .

x2boys

I know what it's like on the front line and my experience (of the bed situation) is completely the same as yours but it's not in line with the actual figures which shows detentions are rising in a way that isn't in line with other similar nations with similar MH legislation.

What the lack of resources does is end up with more people detained who shouldn't be (because the alternative community resources aren't there) and professionals are (understandably) anxious about trusting patients and carers. People end up detained when they would be better in the community and to compound the problem because of the bed crisis they end up in entirely inappropriate wards.

In my experience it's now not unusual to have a situation were there may be one suitable (ie Male, PICU etc) mental health bed in the entire country for a period of days. Then this leads to poorly planned discharges which increase readmission rates.

The whole thing is a fucking mess and the idea that the crisis in mental health somehow ensures that the only people being detained are the ones who need it is entirely ludicrous.

Not ime Ugly

It might not be your experience but it is a fact. You can Google it.

Sympathy to you but it’s all been said. It’s not treated lightly. It really is the opposite in the vast majority of cases which is borne out in people begging for it and being refused. There’s shortage of spots and ‘beds’ are valuable. The more frequent complaint is about people not being sectioned or booted out prematurely

I'm sorry- but it sounds quite reasonable. She wouldn't engage with the doctor. She minimised the potential risk she could have caused herself, and wouldn't agree to continue with the treatment required to protect her liver. It's a reasonable supposition that she may be at risk of complying to day treatment, as she seems to have poor insight and acknowledgment of what she's done. Has she made attempts before? Sectioning is not done lightly at all. I'm sorry you disagree that it was done to your daughter, but it's done when required to ensure safety

YABU.

Everything you have described here sounds entirely reasonable. They are not doing this to punish her but to protect her from harming herself, which is the main reason for sectioning someone.

Her doctor will have weighed up the risk of stopping treatment early. They went to medical school and are likely to have a better idea of what is 'low risk' than you.

You need to work with the medical staff; they are there to help your daughter. It's a difficult situation but your daughter is unlikely to have the most objective view of her own best interest right now.

UglyGlassVase Have you ever lived with someone who was sectioned? People on here like me have had some shocking experiences which is why the presumption is her daughter will have been ill to have been sectioned.

The stress of watching someone deteriorate while professionals ignore you until it’s too late is awful. Those experiences will obviously shape the advice that people are giving to a question about sections being given out lightly. Yes there will be errors but I suspect most family members would prefer an error in the favour of a too long detention than errors the other way when their relative is sick.

If the OP wants to advocate for her daughter, the best thing she can do is ask the professionals caring for her more about why she has been sectioned, how long they anticipate that being, are there other settings they might be appropriate, how they are managing her autism and what will be the next steps in her treatment. It might be they only have a short section and inpatient stay in mind.

From what the op has said, the ward staff don't sound very kind. Have you discussed autism with them and requested a word with the psychiatrist op. The lack of kindness merits referral to PALS imo. If your dd needs to be there, then the care needs to be sensitive and autism appropriate.

She’s been diagnosed with asd since she was 14. I’ve found adult mental health staff in general to not be as understanding of it as camhs are. Re the treatment because she had unplugged the drip the doctor did blood tests. He said he was okay with her not having the last four hours. The psychiatrist said to her he wouldn’t put a time limit and his words were “could be next week” could be the week after that. She has ward round on Monday so hopefully she can at least have some leave though I think she plans to ask him for discharge. Her care coordinator from the community team is coming to which I think will help her. Thank you everyone for your support with this difficult situation

To make things more complicated we’ve recently moved and have to change doctors surgery. This means a move of community teams it’s the same healthcare trust just a different town. She’s incredibly worried about that. I was hoping she would be able to stay with her current team as it’s so local and I’ve just online people can choose to be referred out of area even.

Ah because a slow death from paracetamol overdose is so much better than a section!!

This is not the full story: it is a high threshold. I know this because I have sectioned people.

Thank you for all replies. She’s still very upset about the section and not keen on the ward. They sectioned her because she didn’t acknowledge the damage she could have caused. They also said if she couldn’t comply with the treatment that she was unlikely to comply with the day hospital treatment. She’s seen the psychiatrist here today and he’s said he won’t be taking her off the section today.

The key bit here is acknowledging the damage. That will make them question her capacity as you need to know and be able to weigh up the consequences of unwise decisions.

With ASD on an acute ward I imagine she is struggling, the staff should be at least attempting differentiated care but I'm with the psychiatrist here, she's taken an overdose in the community very recently, she's tried to refuse treatment, she lacks capacity, why on earth would he send her home. The risk of death outweighs the risk of her being distressed on a ward.

No one wants to be sectioned. Very few Want to be on a ward. Our system is very much damaged and struggling to cope and the 18 year old threshold is shit.

@UglyGlassVase yes she should advocate for her daughter but I think the likelihood is that there isn't anywhere more appropriate, as in it doesn't exist.

No sectioning isn't done lightly. My DD was almost sectioned, however she eventually agreed to go for inpatient treatment voluntarily. She was in hospital for 2.5 months.
It was on reflection the best thing that ever happened to her. She managed to turn her life around and whilst she still has MH issues, she has coping strategies, and knows what to do if she becomes unwell again, as she never wants to be in a MH ward again.
It's not always a negative thing, some positive things can come from it.