To be annoyed at people who live in a London Borough but insist they don't (i.e Im in Surrey, Kent etc)

[Rosehip10]

As in people in places such as Richmond, Kingston (insisting they live in Surrey) or places such as Bromley (insisting they are in Kent).

These places may used to have in a different county but have been part of greater London and a London Borough since 1965.

Is is snobbery? They usually drone only about postal towns which also no longer exist.

It also has to do with:

Sports teams or other clubs you may belong to (often called Essex this that or the other even if technically based in London)

Whether you do your christmas shopping 'up Lakeside' or 'down Oxford Street'

Whether the rest of your family are scattered across East London or Essex.

Whether there are early 20th Century/ late victorian signs carved into the walls of parks and historic buildings that say "Essex" this that and the other, which give you a constant reminder you're not in London proper.

Whether you can see green fields as part of your commute.

I could go on but you get the idea.

And i'm not sure about your assertion that it will all end up being seen as London in the end. I think the era in which those last few bits of counties were swallowed up is very different to the one we're living in now. I think people are becoming more stubborn about hanging on to what makes places unique and are becoming more suspicious of homogenieity. Just look at how the Liverpudlian accent is getting stronger and stronger in younger people despite the increased urbanisation of the surrounding areas. If the success ofTOWIE is anything to go by the Essex accent is also now being celebrated and strengthened (even by technical Londoners).

I actually think it is more to do with London diaspora. Lots of people moved from the east end in to essex and Hertfordshire. They still get the train in to work there. They still have the accent. They drive back to Hoxton or wherever to visit their family. The link is still there, so they see themselves as Londoners even if they are living in Epping. The tube roundel makes it still feel like london. It isn’t though, and you couldn’t factually argue it, which is what this thread is about.

"give you a constant reminder you're not in London proper."

But for all official intents and purposes you are in London proper. The only thing that separates you from somewhere like Westminster is just the amount of time that has passed from when London consumed the area until now.

As an additional interesting bit of background I spent my entire childhood firmly in the RM postcode area. No one had an IG postcode yet alone a "London" one. So I never had that identity conflict where some children would be identified as one thing and some another. I am strongly of the area where I grew up, but I will say that "Oh I'm from X, before I was born it used to be a part of Essex but now it's London." X is the biggest part of my identity I guess, not London, never Essex (which is not a diss on Essex, I love Essex and have developed very strong connections to it in later life).

It also has to do with: Sports teams or other clubs you may belong to

Yes, I had forgotten that - Mitcham, Merton, 'Tiffin', Teddington, Ham, Morden etc. all play cricket in the Surrey County League;

surreycountyleague.play-cricket.com/website/websites/view_division?id=82344

@MollyBunton There is a grammar school in Reigate, my mum studied there.

@SVRT19674 RGS is a fee-paying school that has retained the grammar name. It's not a true grammar.

I get very confused when people refer to places like Bromley, Kingston, and Croydon as being in London. I still think of them as their county locations.

The thing is, if you live in Bromley and say you're in London you get people sneering at you and saying no you aren't, you're in Kent.

Yep @pontinplace. We border types are damned if we do, damned if we don't.

I'm surprised to hear you say that badgers, most of the people i've known from 'Ornchurch etc are proudly Essex. I guess everyone's different.

I got it on MN asking about an area that is now in Surrey but was Middlesex and got told off for saying the former...

I'm guessing OP lives in one of these outer boroughs but is claiming to be a Londoner.

As a secretary, I sometimes include the county in an address because it makes it look nicer.

"I'm surprised to hear you say that badgers, most of the people i've known from 'Ornchurch etc are proudly Essex. I guess everyone's different."

It never came up much as a child, see what I said above about not having mixed postcodes as an issue at school, but I do know a few adults who are that way inclined. In the end they can say that they're proud citizens of Roman Britannia, the Saxon Kingdom of Essex or any other place that Hornchurch was in at some point in it's history with equal truthfulness and accuracy. But, for every official purpose, they are Londoners whether they like it or not.

@RuffleCrow whether you can see green fields as part of your commute is nonsense.

Some of the green fields in London are flood plains. Build on them and a far larger area will flood.

@tenterden People from Croydon just need to say they are from Croydon. It is infamous. They don't need to pretend they live in Surrey or say they live in London.

That's very dismissive of you @colafreezepop. Clearly you've never sat on the central line from TCR to Epping. And you know full well what i was saying was a general indicator not an infallible rule.

@ColaFreezePop

“Claiming to live in one of those boroughs but is not a londoner”

That’s hilarious. I can see Canary Wharf from my house. My ancestry goes back 400 years on both sides to Holborn and Shoreditch. I was born in North Middlesex Hospital. But because I’m in the London Borough of xxx (and yes it has a London postcode) I am not a londoner

Who is saying you’re not a Londoner @Mymycherrypie ?

My own loose and, I’m sure, flawed, definition of what a Londoner is would be a London postcode, which you have.

I think StCharlotte was probably saying the OP lives in one of these places that used to be Surrey, and has a Surrey postcode, and is annoyed at other local residents for still calling it Surrey when she wants to be a Londoner.

Just guessing.

"I think StCharlotte was probably saying the OP lives in one of these places that used to be Surrey, and has a Surrey postcode, and is annoyed at other local residents for still calling it Surrey when she wants to be a Londoner."

If she lives in a London Borough then no matter what county her house may have been in prior to 1965 then she is a Londoner. At least as far as "the authorities" are concerned. She'll pay Council Tax to a London Borough with some going to the Greater London Authority. She'll be covered by the London Metropolitan Police. She'll have the right to vote for the Mayor of London and for representatives on the London Assembly. Statistically she'll be counted as a resident of London and not any other Country. Births, marriages and deaths will all be dealt with by a London authority. And so on.

Whether she wants to be a Londoner or not is irrelevant. Whether her neighbours consider her a Londoner or not is irrelevant. For all "official" purposes she quite simply is a Londoner and no different to someone who lives within the old Roman walls.

But I am also in Enfield which is one of those Greater London boroughs that doesn’t entirely have a “London” postcode. My sister who happens to be a little bit further down the Hertford Road and less than half a mile away, is no less a Londoner. It’s not like she’s in Stevenage or Chelmsford and claiming to be in London. I suppose by that reckoning, David Jason isn’t a londoner either, he was born in Edmonton which is on the cusp of EN3.

Chas N Dave also not Londoners by that reckoning. Born in Ponders End. EN3. That’s how ridiculous the postcode argument is.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=9aIMGVXzNbY

Welling is in the London Borough of Bexley and the historic county of Kent.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welling

Kent League Cricket premier league

kcl.play-cricket.com/website/websites/view_division?id=82472

Dartford is in Kent, but Welling has DA postcodes and is in a London Borough.
At the end of the day, why does it matter?

@ColaFreezePop so people from Croydon are neither in Surrey or London?

Goodness, don't people feel strongly got about this! Surely, when most of us say where we live, we try to give the answer that is meaningful to the person who has asked (assuming we're not deliberately trying to hide something).

Over the years have lived in 2 areas that were indisputably London (NW and SE postcodes) and two areas that were in London boroughs, with London phone numbers, but which didn't have London postcodes (HA and TW).

If people I met in London asked where I lived, I'd have said eg Lewisham or Harrow. But if I was asked by someone from outside London, I'd probably have said I lived in London, and then would have been more specific if asked.

I now live in rural Surrey. If asked where I lived, I might say Surrey, because most people who aren't local will never have heard of the town I live in. But if asked by someone a few miles away, I'd say the town. If asked by someone local, I'd tell them the name of the road!

As to discussions about 'proper' London, obviously London is getting bigger all the time! I was born and brought up in the West Country, so I never considered myself a Londoner, even when I lived there. My grandmother, however, always claimed to be a proper cockney because she was born within earshot of Bow Bells.