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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Advice for a Dad

106 replies

percycov · 05/10/2019 22:38

Good Evening!

Below is a letter I have just sent to the CMS.

I was conflicted while writing it as part of me feels i'm getting a raw deal but part of me feels i'm being unreasonable.

So i'm after opinions and advice from a mums (And dads) point of view, so all are welcome

^ALL NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED*

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing regarding maintenance payments for my son XXXXX. I’m currently paying through a DEO £490.69 a month, which is taken out of my salary so my monthly pay is around £850 a month.

I would like clarification on how you came to that figure, as you seem to have been given the wrong address for me, as when my ex partner Ms Smith illegally requested a member of her family who works in finance to obtain my personal details including my work address, salary and home address, they gave her an old address. So I have not seen any correspondence as to how you came to that figure or how long I have to pay that for.

And as that figure is quite high, I’m assuming you’ve been given very one sided information so I would like to explain a few things for you to take into consideration and try give you a picture of my situation and the effect it’s having on me.

Since me and Ms Smith split 5 years ago, I’ve regularly paid maintenance. Every month. Not one payment missed. On some occasions, owing to the fact I was self employed for a few years and I didn’t always get paid myself on time, the payments were late. But never by more than 2-3 days.

I always aimed to pay 10% of what I earnt, and as I was on low earnings this was not always possible, but if their was ever a shortfall my parents would make up the difference. For 5 years I’ve never paid less than £120 a month, Ms Smith was happy with that as she knew I couldn’t afford any more. It increased to £140 a month when I changed job the beginning of last year. One thing I’m sure Ms Smith never mentioned to you was that while I was self employed, I earnt on average £826pm from October 2016 until March 2018. So for that whole period I was paying over what your own calculator suggested I should pay. I roughly worked it out and overpayments come to approx £1100 for that period. But I never complained, I never made an issue of it, I always made sure I paid no matter what.

When me and Ms Smith split up, she moved to XXXXXXX which at the time when I lived in XXXXXXX was 101miles, door to door. Where I live now it’s 104 miles door to door. So for me to have Ben for the weekend pick him up Friday, back home Sunday it’s 416 miles. I have a 2.0ltr car and on motorways I get roughly 25mpg and with fuel at about £1.30 a ltr it costs me between £80-£90 in fuel. And despite the fact it was Ms Smith who moved away with Ben she has never once brought him to me, or offered to meet halfway. In fact on the one occasion I did ask the reply was “If you want to see your son you know where he is”. So for 5 years, every month I have paid the fuel costs. But I know none of that will come into consideration.

During that period, owing to the fact my earnings were low not only was I not able to maintain regular contact with Ben due to that fact I couldn’t afford the fuel costs for the 400 mile round trip, which meant I could only see him for 1 day a month. This also wasn’t helped by Ms Smith stopping me from seeing him as and when she see fit example being if maintenance was paid a day or 2 late, I would be told I can’t come see him that weekend. Ms Smith also let slip once that if he came to stay with me anymore than he did then I’d have to pay less, but I’m sure that’s not her motive for stopping me having him.

I also got myself into considerable debt due to low earnings. I was using credit cards for everyday things like fuel and food shopping and trying to maintain contact with Ben. Currently my debts stand at around £14k, most of it credit card/overdraft debt detailed in the DMP I have attached with this letter.

In March 2018 I started a new job on a lot better money than what I was previously earning. It meant I was less reliant on credit cards, however due to repayments and interest payments I was paying about £600pm on credit card and overdraft payments per month. So any extra money I was earning just got swallowed straight up. But I still kept my maintenance payments up and still tried to maintain regular contact with Ben.

As I was earning more maintenance payments should have increased, which they didn’t. I explained to Ms Smith that I was trying to repay my debts, trying to get by day to day, trying to maintain a relationship with my son. I showed her statements proving I was paying the maximum I could physically afford. If she needed money which was a monthly occurrence, I would ask my parents to give it her, and 9 times out of 10 they would. If Ben needed any clothes or trainers for school etc which again was a monthly request, I would order it on online on credit and have it sent, no questions asked. I would always help where I could. One year when Ms Smith was struggling, my parents paid a whole years car insurance for her. So I don’t know what information Ms Smith has given you but despite her making it very difficult for me to maintain a relationship with my son, I have always helped where possible and Ben never went without anything he needed and she reluctantly understood my situation regarding my debts.

At the beginning of this year, on the brink of financial ruin, with debt collectors knocking my door regularly and almost losing everything I contacted stepchange debt charity. Told them my situation and they were very helpful. I was put onto a debt management plan, they essentially took control of my finances. And although my debt remains, my repayments were reduced significantly. As a result of this I was able to increase what I paid to Ms Smith.

But we had a disagreement over contact arrangements, her not letting me see or speak to him over the Christmas period at all. As a result I told her I would be seeking family mediation and possibly a court order if she continues to deny me access. It was then she told me she had contacted you regarding the fact I had not paid what I was supposed to when I changed jobs even though she knew the situation I was in.

So I’m assuming that’s when Ms Smith illegally obtained my information and the letters started going to an old address as she never asked my where I lived once. But she explained to me you were involved and how much I would have to pay back. Knowing I could not afford it and what implications it would have on my finances I pleaded with her, I kept showing her statements and wage slips trying to get her to be reasonable, and knowing I couldn’t afford it she went ahead anyway.

That's when the DEO kicked in. And as you can see from the DMP summary I have sent, every pound I earnt was accounted for. Once bills and day to day items were paid for, any surplus went on debt repayments. I live a very modest life. I don’t drink, don’t smoke, don't’ live extravagantly. I rent a room in a house because I can’t afford to live alone so Ben can’t have a room for himself. Only leisure time I have is when I take Ben to the cinema or bowling etc. I pay to keep my car on the road because without it I wouldn’t be able to travel to Ben.

So I hope you can see what sort of impact it’s having now I’m having £490 taken out of my salary every month. My debts are no longer being paid off so debt collectors are now chasing me again which is a massive stress on me.
I have missed car insurance payments, which if I miss any more will be cancelled. I have missed car repayments which has resulted in penalty fines. I am now relying on credit cards to get me by with day to day items such as food and fuel. I’m working 60hrs a week minimum to try get some overtime. Some days without lunch because I can’t afford it. I have to borrow money from people to afford to travel to see Ben, but I’m too ashamed to ask any more. If I keep missing car repayments it will be repossessed. I am an on call firefighter, if i was to lose my car then i would lose my job, which would mean i would lose approx £150-£200 extra income per month as well as having to spend about £200 on train tickets to see him, which I won’t be able to afford so I just won’t be able to see him any more as his mother wouldn’t ever drive up here. I paid £90 onto a credit card to arrange a family mediation meeting, to try sort this situation and to try get regular contact with Ben, but Ms Smith refused to show up. And a court order is out the question as I’d ever be able to afford it.

Ben is the most important thing in my life, it breaks my heart that I haven’t been able to have a proper relationship with him. We have a great relationship when I do see him, he loves coming to see me and gets upset when he has to leave which kills me. I think that adds to Ms Smith resentment towards me and why she tries to make maintaining a relationship with him as difficult as possible.

I don’t engage with her when she tries to argue, I don't swear at her, I was never violent or abusive towards her, my family were always good to her and despite the fact she is now getting a large sum of money every month off me she still sends me horrible abusive texts, she still tries to deny me access for no reason, her and her family write things about me on social media, lies about me, constantly telling me I am a bad father and I should try see Ben more yet its her that puts the obstacles in the way. I know a lot of this information is irrelevant but who else can I tell? The system is so heavily stacked in favour of mums, so I just have to accept it.

Ms Smith is a great Mum, and has raised Ben well. I know she has struggled financially too which is why I’ve always been willing to help out where I can. But she blames her situation on me, she moved to one of the most expensive counties to be closer to her parents and since then has struggled financially. But I have struggled too but she doesn’t see that, she thinks I live a life of luxury and I’m sitting on a pot of gold when I’m not and I think that’s where the resentment and unwillingness to help me maintain a relationship with Ben has come from. My parents have also received abusive messages from her too, which is very unreasonable as they’ve always helped her. So now they are unwilling to help anymore.

At the time of writing I have £109 in my bank account. I got paid 2 days ago and will not get paid again until the end of the month. My credit cards are all maxed out (again). And I still have bills to pay this month. I’m unable to buy things for Ben, clothes and toys etc. His birthday was recently, I had to borrow money from parents to be able to afford presents form him. When he comes to stay I’m unable to afford little things such as cinema, trips out any more, the best I can do for him is a kickabout in the park or a walk, not very exciting for a 10yr old. Whereas previous summers we’d go the beach for the day or theme parks. So tell me is my son really benefiting from this?

I haven’t lived in the same place for more than 6 months because I’m trying to stay one step ahead of the debt collectors. The stress of waiting for that knock on the door is one I wouldn’t wish on anyone. And when I was put onto my DMP I cannot put into words the relief I felt that I was given some breathing space and that feeling I was going to sink had left me. But now it’s back, and I feel like I’m about to sink again.

So that’s my situation right now. It’s pretty desperate. I’m on the brink of ruin not only financially but personally too. And Ms Smith knows this, and she doesn’t care. “It is what it is” was a response I got from her.

Everything I have put in this letter is provable with texts or bank statements, I’m not making anything up for sympathy, it’s just the situation as it is.

So many dads don’t care about their children, I am one of the ones that do everything I can for my son. I would lay down my life for my boy and he is literally the only thing keeping me going at the minute.

So I hope I get a response from you, and not just an automated robotic response hiding behind regulations etc. An actual response, from a person. And if you think the amount you are taking off me is fair then I want you to tell me why you think it’s fair. And if you think it’s ok to push someone to the brink of ruin, I want you to tell why you think it’s ok. Yes Ms Smith is getting back payments but it’s Ben that is losing out because whereas before I was able to buy him things and take him places, he doesn’t get any of that any more because I can’t afford to. And once I lose my car, which is inevitable then I can’t see how I will be able to maintain contact. So I want you to tell me why you think that’s ok.

Hope to hear from you soon

OP posts:
Butchyrestingface · 05/10/2019 23:05

That is way, way too long for most posters to read (assuming you want a good number of responses).

Can you summarise?

Venger · 05/10/2019 23:06

You need to heavily edit the letter, make it less personal and more factual. They don't need to know the ins and outs of the relationship or what your parents have helped with or how you think your ex got your address. Dear CMS, I can't afford the payments. I want a mandatory reconsideration. Yours sincerely. Job done.

You also need to contact the companies you have debts with an renegotiate your repayments. Maintenance is a priority bill, unsecured loans are not. They will try and pressure you and say you must repay £xx per month or the account will be passed over to a collection agency but it's rubbish, they must agree payments that are affordable for you in your current circumstances and take into account your priority bills. Tell them they need to lower the repayments.

Butchyrestingface · 05/10/2019 23:07

I doubt CMS will give a letter of that length due attention either!

You may have a case and be making good points but none of that will matter if the reader has lost the will to live by the end of paragraph 12 with 34 still to go.

vodkaredbullgirl · 05/10/2019 23:11

Bloody hell thats a long letter only read 1/2 of it. As pp said they dont need to know the ins and outs.

Just tell them that you are having difficulties with payments.

Thehop · 05/10/2019 23:12

Heartbreaking, but I don’t think they’ll care.

Make it public on fb. An open letter and get it shared. This needs more awareness.

LionelRitchieStoleMyNotebook · 05/10/2019 23:16

You paid no less than £120 a month, do you think that's all it costs his mother to raise him or are you looking for applause? If you can't afford it write a factual letter, but drop the sob story.

LionelRitchieStoleMyNotebook · 05/10/2019 23:17

If you don't like the contact arrangements take her to court, if she is being abusive/harassing you by text go to the police. I don't know why you think CMS are interested.

JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 05/10/2019 23:18

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing regarding maintenance payments for my son XXXXX. I’m currently paying through a DEO £490.69 a month, which is taken out of my salary so my monthly pay is around £850 a month.

I would like clarification on how you came to that figure

That’s where it should’ve ended.

BeanBag7 · 05/10/2019 23:19

TLDR sorry! Hopefully the CMS people dont feel the same!

RainingFrogsAndHats · 05/10/2019 23:22

Sorry, OP. I agree it's a v long letter and they probably wont care.... they'll hear it 500 times a day.

I don't mean to sound uncaring, because your situation does sound grim, so I'm sorry for that. Your parents sound amazing though

One thing that jumped out at me... early on in your letter you mention spending around 10% of your salary on your child? Well, I'm shit at money and maths. And my situation is different to yours cos I'm not single, and my DD is almost an adult now. But I spend way, way, way more than 10% of my salary on her. And have since she was born.
Feeding, clothing, hobbies, taxi-ing, phone bill. The list goes on and on and on and on

saraclara · 05/10/2019 23:24

The CMS people are far too busy to read all that, as others have said. And the first few lines of that last full paragraph will put their backs up if they do read it all.

Cut it down to 10% of its at the very most. Preferably less) and end it on a polite note that makes the person who reads it actually WANT to help you.

Venger · 05/10/2019 23:25

Make it public on fb. An open letter and get it shared. This needs more awareness

This will do nothing to resolve the situation for the OP, opens him up to all sorts of abuse as well as contact from various MRA nutjobs who think maintenance is a personal affront, and - mostly importantly- it is not a coherent, easy to read letter. It's a rambling essay that makes little to no sense to anyone but the person who wrote it.(sorry OP).

Remarked · 05/10/2019 23:31

OP that is way too long and they will not give a shit. They will get letters like that daily. It needs to be to the point.

Dear Sirs,

I have not been receiving your correspondence as my childs Mother gave you an incorrect address. My address is....
You are currently taking £490.69 out of my monthly salary despite the fact my wage is only x amount per month. This is causing significant financial hardship and I am already on a DMP which unusually high CM is causing me to default on.
Your calculator shows I should only be paying Y amount based on my monthly income of X.
Can you please review this and clarify if this is correct.

Calculate here what you should be paying. www.gov.uk/calculate-child-maintenance

JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 05/10/2019 23:33

I’m currently paying through a DEO £490.69 a month, which is taken out of my salary so my monthly pay is around £850 a month.

Just a clarification here. Your monthly pay is not £850. Your monthly pay is £1340 a month. (Presumably that’s after tax) You’re left with £850 a month after paying child support.

DeathStare · 05/10/2019 23:38

I know she has struggled financially too which is why I’ve always been willing to help out where I can

He's your child. You shouldn't be "helping out where you can" you should be paying 50% of the costs involved in raising him.

Do you really think that £120 is half the costs in raising him? Do you really think she can pay for a roof over his head, gas, electric, water, TV, clothes, food, toys for £240 a month?????

DeathStare · 05/10/2019 23:41

I always aimed to pay 10% of what I earnt, and as I was on low earnings this was not always possible

The minimum you are obliged to pay is 12% of your earnings. So you shouldn't be aiming for 10%, you should be guaranteeing 12%.

And what do you think happens to your son when this is "not always possible"? Should your ex just not feed him that month?

TrainspottingWelsh · 05/10/2019 23:43

I got to the bit about trying to pay 10% of your salary when you could as though that's something to be proud of, when actually it's shameful, and thought wanker. You might have a point about struggling to pay off the backlog of maintenance at that rate, but it's completely lost with the above, which implies you have no idea about the cost of raising a child. Also talking about the fuel costs of your 2.0 car sounds like an excuse.

Whether it's reasonable depends what she's been raising your child on. If she's been doing it in poverty, and/or racking up her own debts because of your late/ low/ missing payments then frankly it's tough if you are now struggling.

(One of my colleagues was previously raising a dc on jsa, which meant after topping up the housing benefit shortfall for her rent, she kept them both on £120 a week, so your £850 struggles for one wouldn't be that bad by comparison)

MillicentMartha · 05/10/2019 23:44

At a take home pay of £1340/month you should be paying £183/month for one child.

itsbetterthanabox · 05/10/2019 23:48

Christ.
Just ask for recalcualtion as you belive it is incorrect and submit your information.
They do not care about your personal life.

WhatTiggersDoBest · 05/10/2019 23:53

Just a clarification here. Your monthly pay is not £850. Your monthly pay is £1340 a month. (Presumably that’s after tax) You’re left with £850 a month after paying child support.

@JoxerGoesToStuttgart thanks for clarifying that I was totally lost on the figures because some of them didn't seem to add up especially given he's an adult apparently working 60 hours some weeks.

OP, I read your whole letter. This needs to be kept to one side to take to court to get contact later, but sadly most of it is not directly relevant to the child maintenance issue. I would take out about 95% of the letter and leave it at the very most basic facts: You think they've calculated based on incorrect information obtained illegally. But first you need to find out how they arrived at that.
I was wondering on £850 a month can you get a UC topup if you're self-employed? But then Joxer recalculated your income and I think it might be above the UC threshold. Otherwise, can you get your parents to lend you the money to take your DS's mother to court to get contact and ideally put to rest the £80-£90 driving trips?

ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/10/2019 23:53

I actually have a great deal of sympathy for this man.

Send your letter - it will make you feel better. No, it won't do much. But talking/writing helps ease the burden. So go ahead and send it.

Some practical advice - CMS are taking 20% on top for the DEO. You may be able to get it stopped if you can show they have been writing to incorrect addresses. Worst case scenario is that after 6 months of payments you can ask to come off it and pay by direct debit. If after 6 months of direct debit payments have been made, you have the choice to switch to direct pay with no charges for you.

You must also ask for a variation with regards to travelling costs to maintain a relationship with your son.

A positive is that it sounds like your earnings have potential to increase in time as a firefighter? It won't always feel so awful.

ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/10/2019 23:57

Also, regarding court, your income is low enough so you don't have to pay the £215 fee. You don't need a solicitor. You can do this yourself. It will cost you nothing.

CrazyCatLady159 · 06/10/2019 00:38

The CMS would have ran a check on you to get your employment / earnings through HMRC and they go off the last tax year - my ex wouldn't give his work details / address details so they went and dug them out themselves

As others have said maintenance is worked out before tax at 12% plus 20% fees on top which is how they came to that figure. This lasts for 6 months; then you can request to pay by direct debit (still incurring the charges) then after another 6 months you can request to pay the mother directly not getting any charges.

They probably won't read the letter. Can I have a mandatory reconsideration would have done the trick - they don't care about your car or he said / she said.

wombat1a · 06/10/2019 01:21

I gave up reading it 1/3 of the way through and so will they.

You need to stick to the facts
You earn X, they want Y, can they recalculate Y as it seems too high to you.

Noti23 · 06/10/2019 01:23

I empathise with your situation. Nevertheless, it was very ignorant to suggest that the primary carer (normally mother) is always treated favourably.

My dad didn’t pay a penny for my upbringing despite ongoing assessments (I found the CMS letters as a teen). He was working and hardly saw me. I don’t know how he got away with it.

I hope things improve for you. My advice would be to keep things succinct and impersonal in your communications from now on.