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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Advice for a Dad

106 replies

percycov · 05/10/2019 22:38

Good Evening!

Below is a letter I have just sent to the CMS.

I was conflicted while writing it as part of me feels i'm getting a raw deal but part of me feels i'm being unreasonable.

So i'm after opinions and advice from a mums (And dads) point of view, so all are welcome

^ALL NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED*

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing regarding maintenance payments for my son XXXXX. I’m currently paying through a DEO £490.69 a month, which is taken out of my salary so my monthly pay is around £850 a month.

I would like clarification on how you came to that figure, as you seem to have been given the wrong address for me, as when my ex partner Ms Smith illegally requested a member of her family who works in finance to obtain my personal details including my work address, salary and home address, they gave her an old address. So I have not seen any correspondence as to how you came to that figure or how long I have to pay that for.

And as that figure is quite high, I’m assuming you’ve been given very one sided information so I would like to explain a few things for you to take into consideration and try give you a picture of my situation and the effect it’s having on me.

Since me and Ms Smith split 5 years ago, I’ve regularly paid maintenance. Every month. Not one payment missed. On some occasions, owing to the fact I was self employed for a few years and I didn’t always get paid myself on time, the payments were late. But never by more than 2-3 days.

I always aimed to pay 10% of what I earnt, and as I was on low earnings this was not always possible, but if their was ever a shortfall my parents would make up the difference. For 5 years I’ve never paid less than £120 a month, Ms Smith was happy with that as she knew I couldn’t afford any more. It increased to £140 a month when I changed job the beginning of last year. One thing I’m sure Ms Smith never mentioned to you was that while I was self employed, I earnt on average £826pm from October 2016 until March 2018. So for that whole period I was paying over what your own calculator suggested I should pay. I roughly worked it out and overpayments come to approx £1100 for that period. But I never complained, I never made an issue of it, I always made sure I paid no matter what.

When me and Ms Smith split up, she moved to XXXXXXX which at the time when I lived in XXXXXXX was 101miles, door to door. Where I live now it’s 104 miles door to door. So for me to have Ben for the weekend pick him up Friday, back home Sunday it’s 416 miles. I have a 2.0ltr car and on motorways I get roughly 25mpg and with fuel at about £1.30 a ltr it costs me between £80-£90 in fuel. And despite the fact it was Ms Smith who moved away with Ben she has never once brought him to me, or offered to meet halfway. In fact on the one occasion I did ask the reply was “If you want to see your son you know where he is”. So for 5 years, every month I have paid the fuel costs. But I know none of that will come into consideration.

During that period, owing to the fact my earnings were low not only was I not able to maintain regular contact with Ben due to that fact I couldn’t afford the fuel costs for the 400 mile round trip, which meant I could only see him for 1 day a month. This also wasn’t helped by Ms Smith stopping me from seeing him as and when she see fit example being if maintenance was paid a day or 2 late, I would be told I can’t come see him that weekend. Ms Smith also let slip once that if he came to stay with me anymore than he did then I’d have to pay less, but I’m sure that’s not her motive for stopping me having him.

I also got myself into considerable debt due to low earnings. I was using credit cards for everyday things like fuel and food shopping and trying to maintain contact with Ben. Currently my debts stand at around £14k, most of it credit card/overdraft debt detailed in the DMP I have attached with this letter.

In March 2018 I started a new job on a lot better money than what I was previously earning. It meant I was less reliant on credit cards, however due to repayments and interest payments I was paying about £600pm on credit card and overdraft payments per month. So any extra money I was earning just got swallowed straight up. But I still kept my maintenance payments up and still tried to maintain regular contact with Ben.

As I was earning more maintenance payments should have increased, which they didn’t. I explained to Ms Smith that I was trying to repay my debts, trying to get by day to day, trying to maintain a relationship with my son. I showed her statements proving I was paying the maximum I could physically afford. If she needed money which was a monthly occurrence, I would ask my parents to give it her, and 9 times out of 10 they would. If Ben needed any clothes or trainers for school etc which again was a monthly request, I would order it on online on credit and have it sent, no questions asked. I would always help where I could. One year when Ms Smith was struggling, my parents paid a whole years car insurance for her. So I don’t know what information Ms Smith has given you but despite her making it very difficult for me to maintain a relationship with my son, I have always helped where possible and Ben never went without anything he needed and she reluctantly understood my situation regarding my debts.

At the beginning of this year, on the brink of financial ruin, with debt collectors knocking my door regularly and almost losing everything I contacted stepchange debt charity. Told them my situation and they were very helpful. I was put onto a debt management plan, they essentially took control of my finances. And although my debt remains, my repayments were reduced significantly. As a result of this I was able to increase what I paid to Ms Smith.

But we had a disagreement over contact arrangements, her not letting me see or speak to him over the Christmas period at all. As a result I told her I would be seeking family mediation and possibly a court order if she continues to deny me access. It was then she told me she had contacted you regarding the fact I had not paid what I was supposed to when I changed jobs even though she knew the situation I was in.

So I’m assuming that’s when Ms Smith illegally obtained my information and the letters started going to an old address as she never asked my where I lived once. But she explained to me you were involved and how much I would have to pay back. Knowing I could not afford it and what implications it would have on my finances I pleaded with her, I kept showing her statements and wage slips trying to get her to be reasonable, and knowing I couldn’t afford it she went ahead anyway.

That's when the DEO kicked in. And as you can see from the DMP summary I have sent, every pound I earnt was accounted for. Once bills and day to day items were paid for, any surplus went on debt repayments. I live a very modest life. I don’t drink, don’t smoke, don't’ live extravagantly. I rent a room in a house because I can’t afford to live alone so Ben can’t have a room for himself. Only leisure time I have is when I take Ben to the cinema or bowling etc. I pay to keep my car on the road because without it I wouldn’t be able to travel to Ben.

So I hope you can see what sort of impact it’s having now I’m having £490 taken out of my salary every month. My debts are no longer being paid off so debt collectors are now chasing me again which is a massive stress on me.
I have missed car insurance payments, which if I miss any more will be cancelled. I have missed car repayments which has resulted in penalty fines. I am now relying on credit cards to get me by with day to day items such as food and fuel. I’m working 60hrs a week minimum to try get some overtime. Some days without lunch because I can’t afford it. I have to borrow money from people to afford to travel to see Ben, but I’m too ashamed to ask any more. If I keep missing car repayments it will be repossessed. I am an on call firefighter, if i was to lose my car then i would lose my job, which would mean i would lose approx £150-£200 extra income per month as well as having to spend about £200 on train tickets to see him, which I won’t be able to afford so I just won’t be able to see him any more as his mother wouldn’t ever drive up here. I paid £90 onto a credit card to arrange a family mediation meeting, to try sort this situation and to try get regular contact with Ben, but Ms Smith refused to show up. And a court order is out the question as I’d ever be able to afford it.

Ben is the most important thing in my life, it breaks my heart that I haven’t been able to have a proper relationship with him. We have a great relationship when I do see him, he loves coming to see me and gets upset when he has to leave which kills me. I think that adds to Ms Smith resentment towards me and why she tries to make maintaining a relationship with him as difficult as possible.

I don’t engage with her when she tries to argue, I don't swear at her, I was never violent or abusive towards her, my family were always good to her and despite the fact she is now getting a large sum of money every month off me she still sends me horrible abusive texts, she still tries to deny me access for no reason, her and her family write things about me on social media, lies about me, constantly telling me I am a bad father and I should try see Ben more yet its her that puts the obstacles in the way. I know a lot of this information is irrelevant but who else can I tell? The system is so heavily stacked in favour of mums, so I just have to accept it.

Ms Smith is a great Mum, and has raised Ben well. I know she has struggled financially too which is why I’ve always been willing to help out where I can. But she blames her situation on me, she moved to one of the most expensive counties to be closer to her parents and since then has struggled financially. But I have struggled too but she doesn’t see that, she thinks I live a life of luxury and I’m sitting on a pot of gold when I’m not and I think that’s where the resentment and unwillingness to help me maintain a relationship with Ben has come from. My parents have also received abusive messages from her too, which is very unreasonable as they’ve always helped her. So now they are unwilling to help anymore.

At the time of writing I have £109 in my bank account. I got paid 2 days ago and will not get paid again until the end of the month. My credit cards are all maxed out (again). And I still have bills to pay this month. I’m unable to buy things for Ben, clothes and toys etc. His birthday was recently, I had to borrow money from parents to be able to afford presents form him. When he comes to stay I’m unable to afford little things such as cinema, trips out any more, the best I can do for him is a kickabout in the park or a walk, not very exciting for a 10yr old. Whereas previous summers we’d go the beach for the day or theme parks. So tell me is my son really benefiting from this?

I haven’t lived in the same place for more than 6 months because I’m trying to stay one step ahead of the debt collectors. The stress of waiting for that knock on the door is one I wouldn’t wish on anyone. And when I was put onto my DMP I cannot put into words the relief I felt that I was given some breathing space and that feeling I was going to sink had left me. But now it’s back, and I feel like I’m about to sink again.

So that’s my situation right now. It’s pretty desperate. I’m on the brink of ruin not only financially but personally too. And Ms Smith knows this, and she doesn’t care. “It is what it is” was a response I got from her.

Everything I have put in this letter is provable with texts or bank statements, I’m not making anything up for sympathy, it’s just the situation as it is.

So many dads don’t care about their children, I am one of the ones that do everything I can for my son. I would lay down my life for my boy and he is literally the only thing keeping me going at the minute.

So I hope I get a response from you, and not just an automated robotic response hiding behind regulations etc. An actual response, from a person. And if you think the amount you are taking off me is fair then I want you to tell me why you think it’s fair. And if you think it’s ok to push someone to the brink of ruin, I want you to tell why you think it’s ok. Yes Ms Smith is getting back payments but it’s Ben that is losing out because whereas before I was able to buy him things and take him places, he doesn’t get any of that any more because I can’t afford to. And once I lose my car, which is inevitable then I can’t see how I will be able to maintain contact. So I want you to tell me why you think that’s ok.

Hope to hear from you soon

OP posts:
OpportunityKnocks · 06/10/2019 10:24

'why are you taking so much money from my wages' should suffice. The long drawn out sob story does not make me feel sorry for you one jot and makes me think you believe yourself to be a victim through and through. Victim of your own doing that is. CMS don't need to know any of that.

Why aren't you just calling CMS?

Ps, get a cheaper to run car.

PicsInRed · 06/10/2019 10:34

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kitk · 06/10/2019 10:45

I really wouldn't bother sending that letter. They won't read it and you will get an automated response. Unfortunately your travel costs/ living costs cos of bad financial decisions are all on you. You need to make some life changes that allow you to support your child

percycov · 06/10/2019 12:53

Thanks for the responses. Wish I had asked for opinions before I sent, but what's done is done.
It is a very personal letter and I know they'll probably not care but i find myself in a situation and i hope they have a bit of understanding.

Why don't you move closer - I have applied for transfers to various different brigades which are closer, unsuccessfully

Just £120? - That was the amount i'd transfer each month, but nearly every month either me or my parents would send more, pay bills for her, buy clothes for him not to mention when i had him i would buy him things and take him places. It always added up to a lot more than £120

Just pay for your child - I'm happy to, if i'm honest it isn't really about money. But what's happening is crippling me financially meaning he is losing out. If she didn't stop me seeing him as she sees fit, or helped out with the travel then i could perhaps take it on the chin. But it's a one way street at the minute.

OP posts:
percycov · 06/10/2019 12:57

"Another deadbeat who thinks kids can be put on pause when they dont want to pay full whack.

I wonder if OP ever gets a pint with his mates on those months he shorts the ex on food money for his own child? Bet: yes."

A deadbeat who works 60+ hours a week, does a 400 mile round trip when he's allowed to see his son who doesn't drink or smoke. But you're allowed to have your opinion even if you couldn't be bothered to read the whole post Smile

OP posts:
chamenanged · 06/10/2019 13:08

Just pay for your child - I'm happy to, if i'm honest it isn't really about money. But what's happening is crippling me financially meaning he is losing out. If she didn't stop me seeing him as she sees fit, or helped out with the travel then i could perhaps take it on the chin. But it's a one way street at the minute.

Eh, no. That's not how it works. You're not paying for access Hmm and don't you think he was 'missing out' when you were underpaying on the legal bare minimum you should have been? This is your fault and no one else's. If it's not really about money then you should be happy to be paying what you're paying, no? Don't even get me started on you saying "you have always helped where possible" (the use of the word 'helped' speaking volumes about your attitude) because your PARENTS, not you, gave her money "9 times out of 10" that she needed it. Utterly pathetic.

ISmellBabies · 06/10/2019 13:16

Far too long, didn't finish it. Just ask them to recalculate and include proof of what you paid and what you earn. That's all they need, not an essay.

AMAM8916 · 06/10/2019 14:26

You can't be working 60+ hours a week and earning just £1,340 a month unless you're illegally getting less than the NMW.

The NMW is £8.21 an hour. So even on a basic contract of 37.5 hours a week, you'd get £1,334 a month. If you're on NMW and working 60+ hours a week, your wage would be more like £2,134 a month.

If you're working these hours unpaid, I suggest you work your contracted hours only and get a second job and earn money for the 20+ hours you aren't getting paid for.

The reason you're paying so much at the moment is because you underpaid for so long. 10% isn't the minimum, 12% is. So they are taking arrears at the moment.

It's unsustainable for you though which I get so you do need to appeal it and get it to an amount you can actually afford.

Re the travelling, I would go to court and get an order in place about the amount of contact and the travelling aspect. She should be either dropping him off and collecting him or at least meeting you half way since she chose to move

ThisMustBeMyDream · 06/10/2019 14:32

He has only been underpaying (by CMS rules) since he was assessed by them. Which by the sound of it isn't so long ago. He may have arrears but they won't be years and years worth.

TipToeToothFairy · 06/10/2019 14:43

I feel torn on some of these comments. I don't think he's saying he's paying for access. Sounds like she stops access though and if it's costing him a fortune to go and see his son because she moved them away then that should be considered tbh because in the long term not having his father in his life will be emotionally damaging.

chamenanged · 06/10/2019 15:09

How is he not saying that?

But what's happening is crippling me financially meaning he is losing out. If she didn't stop me seeing him as she sees fit, or helped out with the travel then i could perhaps take it on the chin. But it's a one way street at the minute.

Paying maintenance for your children is a one way street. It's not something he can expect something in return for. If his ex is being unreasonable about access, that's a completely separate issue and should be dealt with as such.

Anyway, sounds like it's costing him a fortune to go and see his son because he's got a bigger and less efficient car than he can afford. Made worse for himself by the fact that he's got in arrears with his maintenance, and guess who had to make up the shortfall in the costs of raising his child while he got in those arrears? Beyond me why any woman would sympathise with this.

ElizaDee · 06/10/2019 15:21

I dont think you are being unreasonable. I think it's scandalous really that the calculations are blindly done on figures with no regards to the nrp's living costs.

I know someone whose figure is worked out before tax and they are left without means to get their own place to live. And they then still pay for all clothes, trainers, school trips, computer games etc on top. He has to do overtime to live, but then is going to be hit up for that next year.

I think the system is unfair and doesn't take into account the fact that the mother should provide too. I see so many of these where it's expected that the father hand over everything while the mother lives off it and expects to have all costs covered like it was when they were together.

UnderhandedBarbieDoll · 06/10/2019 15:39

Op you're going about this arse end first. There's so much wrong in your posts it's batshit.

Your child still needs feeding even if you personally haven't got much money that month. You aren't paying for access, you're providing for your child, visitation arrangements or issues with your ex are a separate issue entirely. You aren't "helping out" your ex by giving her maintenance. Get a court order to sort out the messy setup so it's clear, consistent & enforceable.

Your letter should have been three lines: I'm X, paying Y on a current gross salary of Z. A) Can you give me a breakdown of how the figures were generated? B) can you reconsider/start the re-evaluation process for me?"

Or better yet, just bloody call them to understand the process.

No one will care enough to read your sob story letter. You could be an angel and your ex the devil but until you do a better job of sorting out parental issues like this, you are failing your child. Your child needs you, step up. And do it in a way that's effectively going to facilitate your relationship. Not a rant letter to an unknown CMS employee, who must work on facts... Not sob story pleas.

P.s. don't believe your salary and work hours nonsense. You're either not stating them accurately, not giving the full picture of your financial commitments or working as a slave for illegal (under nmw) employment terms. Your numbers just aren't right if it's a legit job in the UK and you work that many hours.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 06/10/2019 15:43

I think OP said he was self employed which would explain the low earnings.

Mummybares · 06/10/2019 15:52

If self employment means you cabt get nmw then maybe its to reconsider?!

Stompythedinosaur · 06/10/2019 15:55

I can see that you feel hard done by, but you have not been paying much towards your son's upkeep. He will not eat less food because you show your ex evidence that you are struggling. It is not her responsibility to pay your share. I doubt the debt charity would have advised you to underpay on maintainance, and that is how you have ended up in your current situation.

Any difficulties with contact are completely separate to financial arrangements.

My advise would be to go back to the debt charity for further advise based on you current income (which will be reduced until you have paid off the maintanence you owe).

iwashappyonce · 06/10/2019 15:59

£30 a week is an absolute joke.

iwashappyonce · 06/10/2019 16:00

Your child's mother has no option to feed your child less when you are going through financial difficulty. You, however, can pay less.

Graphista · 06/10/2019 16:02

Oh here we go...

Goady goady goady!

"I always aimed to pay 10% of what I earnt" which is pathetic, well below even the cm legal minimum and an insult to your child/ren!

"and as I was on low earnings this was not always possible," then you do what SO MANY resident parents have to do and go without to provide for YOUR kids, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that this would have been necessary if you weren't on a low enough income to qualify for benefits, which from the way you're writing I don't believe you were.

"For 5 years I’ve never paid less than £120 a month" again a pathetic amount!! £4 a day?! That's not even enough to feed a child! Let alone all their other needs.

"Ms Smith was happy with that as she knew I couldn’t afford any more." Why's she gone to cms then?

"It increased to £140 a month when I changed job the beginning of last year." STILL a pathetic amount

Re your self employment (a common job choice for deadbeat dads) is that amount gross or net? Where are you living? What are your living costs? Do you have your child/ren overnight?

Paying transport cost to see your child is your responsibility.

Para 7 is pure vindictiveness and nothing to do with cm.

Your debts/financial ineptitude are also nothing to do with cm.

"If Ben needed any clothes or trainers for school etc which again was a monthly request" YES! Because kids need stuff EVERY MONTH!

"Ben never went without anything he needed" no thanks to you! Thanks to your ex and your parents but certainly not you!

"as she never asked my where I lived once" SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO! If you had been a responsible, organised non resident parent paying a decent amount of cm - hell even the legal MINIMUM - she wouldn't even need to know where you live!

"Ben is the most important thing in my life" then you should have got your act together much sooner to provide for him and be able to maintain a relationship with him.

"The system is so heavily stacked in favour of mums" Utter nonsense!

"I know she has struggled financially too" because SHE is the one doing the majority of care and making up for your shortfall

"which is why I’ve always been willing to help out where I can." NO it is NOT helping her out it is PROVIDING FOR YOUR CHILD. Which actually you've not been doing.

"she moved to one of the most expensive counties to be closer to her parents" of course she wanted to be closer to her parents as a single parent! It's bloody hard parenting alone and ANY support network makes it a BIT easier

"I haven’t lived in the same place for more than 6 months because I’m trying to stay one step ahead of the debt collectors." Inc cms from sounds of things!

Quit making excuses, slating your ex and get your act together properly and provide for your child.

I see NOTHING in any of that which excuses your not doing so.

And yes I believe the £850 a month is what op has left AFTER paying cm. (Which from the sound of things rightly includes arrears)

You need to get a clue about what it really costs to raise a child and realise what you're expecting to get away with paying (which is frankly shameful) is nowhere near half those costs which you ARE responsible for.

£850 a month is plenty for a single adult. You having debts is not your ex's or your child's problem.

It sounds like the self employed job was never a viable option and you should have realised that years ago and got a proper job. You also should have addressed the debts far sooner.

I'd LOVE to know your ex's side of this!

"This says it all. Maintenance is not a payment that comes after everything else is paid. It is the FIRST bill you should be paying, before rent, and certainly before credit cards payment" I actually wouldn't say before rent but certainly before everything else (especially as he's in a house share by sounds of things so rent includes utilities too probably)

So you've gone without food on occasion- as do MANY MANY resident parents who's exs like you didn't pay cm or not enough. You're a grown adult if it's a choice between you eat or your child eats then your child eats!

"Just £120? - That was the amount i'd transfer each month, but nearly every month either me or my parents would send more, pay bills for her, buy clothes for him not to mention when i had him i would buy him things and take him places. It always added up to a lot more than £120" omg you really don't get it do you?

Your parents (and I suspect far more rarely you) giving her money on an irregular basis is NOT the same as regularly paying AT LEAST the legal MINIMUM on a regular basis so she can budget and plan!

And what you spend when he's with you is NOTHING to do with cm. That doesn't replace the half of his costs you are supposed to be covering when he's with his mother which is most of the time and are your child's living costs.

"Just pay for your child - I'm happy to" but you so very clearly are not! Certainly not to a realistic level of half his living costs! You're not even willing to pay enough to feed him!

And your child is NOT "pay per view" when you aren't seeing him he still needs housed, fed, clothed, heated, washed, educated, nurtured... That doesn't happen out of thin air it costs real money!

"You can't be working 60+ hours a week and earning just £1,340 a month unless you're illegally getting less than the NMW. " excellent point - plus the firefighters job or is that included in this?

"He has only been underpaying (by CMS rules) since he was assessed by them." No it's only been officially KNOWN he's underpaying he's been underpaying for years.

"Beyond me why any woman would sympathise with this." Me too I'm shocked at the sympathetic responses.

Particularly as we're so very clearly getting a very biased presentation of the situation under discussion (And op's naturally present themselves in a favourable light and it's STILL clear to me and others he's not been taking full responsibility as a father)

"I think the system is unfair and doesn't take into account the fact that the mother should provide too" complete nonsense! Do you REALLY think the mother in this case is only spending ONLY £120 a month on her child or ever did?! Get real!

SignedUpJust4This · 06/10/2019 16:24

I hope this is a goady joke because your attitude stinks of shit OP.

PencilsInSpace · 06/10/2019 17:23

You need to get a handle on your finances.

You've been to Stepchange and got a DMP in place but since then you've apparently racked up more credit card debt, defaulted on child maintenance and are moving home every 6 months to evade the debt collectors. And you're running a stupid big car that guzzles petrol.

Grow up and face your responsibilities.

Butchyrestingface · 06/10/2019 17:32

are moving home every 6 months to evade the debt collectors.

I'm just gobsmacked he told CMS that!

Might be best if that colossal tome goes missing in the post. Just how much did you have to pay for stamps, OP?

vodkaredbullgirl · 06/10/2019 17:33

So you sent it off already?? If they see it is that long, i doubt they will read it. Well i doubt they will read all of it.

vodkaredbullgirl · 06/10/2019 17:35

Debt collectors will soon catch up with you, you cant evade them forever.

ThisMustBeMyDream · 06/10/2019 17:37

"Beyond me why any woman would sympathise with this." Me too I'm shocked at the sympathetic responses

Maybe because I have the ability to empathise, and actually think the poster is in a very difficult situation, made worse by his ex chosing to move away (regardless of reason).

A lot of posters here (MN in general) seem to be unable to comprehend the life of people on minimum wage. His son probably doesn't cost mum more than the child maintenance payment, her own 50% contribution plus child benefit and child tax credit, and the cost from housing benefit for the fact she needs at least a 2 bedroom home. The child won't be having all kinds of extra's like many of the posters on MN deem as essential. He has 2 parents both on low incomes.

The OP is doing what he can, and a load of ignorant posters are chosing to kick him while he is down. Men are committing suicide for reasons like this. I'd rather be kind and helpful than make someone elses life a bit worse.