To be a bit sad at how times have changed?

[Thenotes]

About 40 years ago, as a 14yo I was visiting GPs for Christmas. I was sent to deliver Christmas cards to the neighbours. Grandma was good friends with her neighbours and I knew most of them by sight but we lived 300 miles away so I didn't know them well.

I went to number one where an old man "Bert" with a Father Christmas beard lived.

He saw me approaching and was at the door by the time I got there, insisted I went in and proceeded to ply me with rhubarb wine.

I was quute tipsy and late back for dinner but no one was cross with me because they'd guessed what had happened.

It's a genuinely fond memory of mine, a pleasant afternoon with a nice man who wanted some company, telling me stories of the "olden day's", plus my first experience of the warm happy feeling of being tipsy but not drunk.

But I'm not sure it would/could happen today.

@AutumnRose1

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader

Apologies it's a wiki link but it's a good place to start although it's grim reading. BTK stands for bind torture kill - I.e. what he did to victims (in between being an active member of the church, church council president and a cub scout leader hence my point above)

P.s. I have a criminology background - I'm not a serial killer fanatic! I know they're popular these days

I think the point the OP is making here isthat it's a pretty sad reflection of society that we have to assume the worst with a situation like this. Of course there will have been dodgy men who wanted to take advantage but this old man clearly didn't..do we really have to assume someone is a peadophile or abuser just because he gave a young girl a few drinks...

But WHY would he give a neighbour’s daughter ‘a few drinks’ when she was underage? That’s not normal. It’s not as if he gave her a slice of cake and a glass of squash. Most people would think this was weird and would have thought the same 30 years ago. I have cousins in their 20s; I am well known to them. I wouldn’t have given them alcohol when they were there underage.

I am 40 and I think the OP is imagining a world that never really existed. ‘Don’t talk to strangers’ was a BIG message when I was growing up. I also distinctly remember a TV ad featuring a boy being offered a lift home by someone he knew - the message was ‘don’t get in the car unless your parents have told you Mr X is picking you up’. This would be the best part of 35 years ago. When did this magical time when we all assumed pensioners getting us drunk was perfectly innocent actually exist?

I have some lovely memories of older friends and family members when I was little. For example, I remember our gardener buying my siblings and me chocolates every Christmas. In turn, my parents would buy him a bottle of whisky or similar. Usually we’d drive over to his house on Christmas Eve and I’d run out of the car to deliver the present. All perfectly innocent. Had he invited me in to share the whisky, I’d have known even as a child that that was wrong. I would have spoken up - and I hope to God other children would feel they could do the same.

It makes me sad that in years to come youngsters won’t be able to visit me even if they know me.

Who has suggested that, Ivykaty?

Many posters on this thread and society look upon people being a danger to youngsters as they may do something sexually inappropriate, going into a house alone with a Bert isn’t safe

@Thenotes

WTF have I just read???

Yeah 'back in the day' my parents (and grandparents who lived 10 houses from us,) knew everyone in their street, and me and my brother would walk round peoples houses popping Christmas cards through the letterboxes of 20-odd neighbours, and everyone knew everyone, they all drank at the local Red Lion, and all the women went to the bingo, and the men to the Social club playing dominoes and darts and pool. And it WAS a lovely time with some lovely memories.

But no 'old man' brought me into his house and plied me with wine, and got me tipsy and kept just me and him there, while he told me tales of days gone by. That's just fucking weird! My parents would never have allowed it. Nope, not even 35-40 years ago!

What a weird thread!!!

@Cam77

There are plenty of terrible human beings in the world, I’d probably reserve my ire for them rather than get worked up by kindly old family friend cheekily offering a 14 year old an alcoholic beverage at Christmas so she’d stay for a chat!

WTAF? Just when I thought I'd read everything on here! Please tell me you don't have children?!

@Wintersnow17 you had a spoonful of sherry at your aunts house. But different from getting tipsy with some random who the OP admits didn’t know him well.

OP, your Bert didnt harm you.

But you do know, that even back then, lots of children went in the house and were abused?

It's like saying 'we didn't have seatbelts and I grew up fine' yes YOU did. But lots of other children and adults did not and would have be saved by a seatbelt.

No matter how nice he was, plying a 14 year old with alcohol, while they are in your house (alone) really isnt ok. Luckily for you Bert didn't do anything. But plenty do.

Listen to survivors of childhood abuse talking about not being believed or being terrified to speak out against kindly old neighbours, family friends etc. Times were different. I think you were lucky to have lovely memories.

I don’t think the abuse we received should taint the ops memory purely because she wasn’t raped by an older man and she should be thankful for that. I think I agree in a way with op but those days were before my time really but your wording is odd. The words chosen make it sound sinister.

I grew up in a tight knit community and have such beautiful memories of it. When DH and I had children, I kept searching and searching for a community that had the same vibe.

Couldn't find it.

We moved to Australia 4 years ago and lo and behold...it's here. We live in a small semi rural market town and everyone knows everyone.

The kids play out...the old people have support...people talk to you and help is there if you need it.

My kids have multiple houses they could go to in an emergency. When we lived in a posh Cheshire village there was none of that.

You sound like a fucking nonce yourself, op

Is that really called for?

I don’t think the abuse we received should taint theopsmemory purely because she wasn’t raped by an older man and she should be thankful for that.

No it shouldn't. But if she is sad atiff like that doesnt happen now she needs to understand that not everyone was left with lovely memories and theres a damn good reason this isnt ok anymore.

I'm not much younger than you OP and an old man I'm waiting at the door for teenage girl, insisting she go in and plying with alcohol would be very very odd.

I interacted with all my neighbours, I'd go to shops to get their shopping almost daily, look after cats, babysit their toddlers, what never ever happened was an adult man insisting I go in and drink alcohol with him.

The language you chose to use makes it sound like he was waiting on the door to pounce, when you say "insisted" that implies you tried to say no and he ignored it, and when you say plied with wine that makes it sound like several glasses of alcohol. That's why you're getting the comment you are.

I can't imagine I'd ever get so lonely as to need to ply 14 year old boys with alcohol to spend an afternoon with me. It's not just a man who'd get in trouble for that these days.

It's also not a choice between not letting our children speak to anybody or spending the afternoon getting tipsy with lonely

An old lonely man has so many options that don't involve needing to spend afternoons with teenage girls getting them tipsy. A man who thinks that the worlds gone to shit because he can't do this should get himself on tinder and find friends his own age.

I don't want to take anything away from those that have suffered abuse, including those abused by "Friends" - I can't imagine what sort of private hell you must be going through...

a few years ago, I was in the toilets in Asda. I'd just finished my business and was about to wash my hands when a little boy came crashing in and said to me excitedly, "I've got £3.65 to spend!" I replied "That's nice, but you really shouldn't speak to strangers"

"why?" he asked.

this flumoxed me a bit, so all I said was "Ask your Mum". At which point I legged it before he could finish and tell his parents "I was talking to a nice man in the toilet."

I like my kneecaps where they are.

A second occasion, in another branch of Asda (Hell, I really should start shopping in Waitrose) there was a girl clearly lost her Mummy. There was no way I was leading a crying child away to customer services, so I grabbed the nearest woman and asked her to help me take her.

I doubt that I would have thought twice about talking to random children 40 years ago....

Fucking hell this thread!

I have a 14 year old, I have friendly, elderly neighbours. Wow, I would be absolutely incandescent with rage if they got her into an enclosed space, alone, and gave her fucking moonshine! Red flags, red flag parade!

And yes, that's obviously totally completely the same as never ever talking to males/elderly people/neighbours/leaving the house

When I was 15 a divorced 40-something man that was renting the basement flat of our house phoned my dad and asked if he would be ok with me "coming down to trim his beard".

My parents were swayed quite liberal so my dad sat me down and said if I was comfortable with this he'd be happy to say yes! 😫

I said something along the lines of no f**cking way" so he politely declined, but to this day I'm still flummoxed at how my (very intelligent) father handled the situation and didn't really judge this creep man!!

I'm in my mid 40s now and when I was 14 this would definitely have been viewed as I appropriate and sinister. Although in this scenario I suspect my parents would have been angry with me for going into the hypothetical Bert's house, because I should have known better, whereas these days most adults would be angry with Bert for behaving inappropriately. So in my mind that's a huge improvement.

On this occasion Bert was harmless but that's good fortune, not an example of how society was better in those days.

I’m of a similar age to the OP and wouldn’t have gone into Bert’s house in a million years! In fact I did a milk round when I was that age, and when collecting the milk money there were always old men trying to get me to come in to their houses, yes some of them were innocent but some of them were awful old perverts! In fact I think things are much better now than they were then, I remember as a child all the kids knowing where the dirty old men lived ( one used to like standing naked at his bedroom window). So yeah, safeguarding and not letting old men ply you with drink, both good things.

I'm of a mixed view. I can recall politely chatting to an elderly gentleman who struck up a conversation with me at a bus stop when I was 13, to be polite (lonely OAP) , and then realising he was wanking off under his coat 😳. On the other hand when my Dd set up her Avon empire at 12 (obviously in my name/I tagged along behind her) she befriended an older lady who wanted to buy a quite large amount of items for Christmas. Dd was ecstatic but I went in to chat to her and we looked at who she was buying for and how much she could afford and whittled it down by many £'s. As it turned out her family didn't visit much and she had a leg injury at the time so wasn't really getting any company. We ended up popping round to visit and doing basic shopping trips for her till she was okay again (I'd pay upfront and provide the receipts). So yes it's nice to be nice and people still are, but I wouldn't paint it as all rosy just because someone's old.

If anything would have happened, or, which people don't seem to be considering, on the way home something would have happened. The OP would have been ripped apart in Court. Her character and motives would have been brought into question because she was the sort of girl to have a drink and walk the streets alone. We didn't blame men and men generally thought of anything female as fair game.

"I am 40 and I think the OP is imagining a world that never really existed. ‘Don’t talk to strangers’ was a BIG message when I was growing up."

I'm in my 50's. We had the same. It was on the back of Ian Brady and Myra Hindley's crimes. They didn't assault every young person they picked up, there were lots of test runs. Then we had the Yorkshire ripper (as well as a few less famous). Fred and Rose West also didn't assault every young woman they had contact with. A few of the ones they did, who went to the Poluce, were blamed and accused of leading them on and feeling guilty, so the report was out of malice. The rape culture was alive and well.

We're been soliving all sorts of crimes from the 60/70/80's against children and women. All commited by men above suspicion at the time.

If communities worked so well, why did the old man need the company of a 14 year old girl? Especially to the extent he put her in danger, by sending her out at night, alone, drunk. The answer is he didn't.

Girls are still considered fair game, older men still think it's ok to leer at young women. There's just enough people about who object, which is why it's less public. It was Women's objections and demand for rights that made society protect us. If more men had have got involved sooner, we'd be less suspicious of them.

We now keep girls safe and don't blame them. We make men question their motives and justify their behaviour, which is a good thing.

The past wasn't innocent. The past involved covering up disgusting and perverse behaviour, and putting on a show of normalcy. The past favoured perpetrators and not victims. The past was full of horrors that victims back then are only just now speaking out about, without fear of being silenced or alienated.

I'm glad you had that one jolly experience though, OP...

As a 4-5 yr old I regularly visited an elderly neighbour who would give me icecream lemonade drinks & sweets generally. My mum was well aware. These days people would probably get judgy about the sugar . As an older child we were always befriending various elderly neighbours who plied siblings and I with cake, sweets, even money etc in return for simple company.

I know what you mean OP. We live in an era of default suspicion that probably contributes to the loneliness of old people.

The past wasn't innocent. The past involved covering up disgusting and perverse behaviour, and putting on a show of normalcy. The past favoured perpetrators and not victims. The past was full of horrors that victims back then are only just now speaking out about, without fear of being silenced or alienated.

Totally agree.

Your story doesn’t make me think of innocence I’d be more than annoyed if someone insisted my 14 year old go into a barely known person’s house and made to drink alcohol.

You say you’d be ok with it are your teens 14 or older?

The past wasn't innocent. The past involved covering up disgusting and perverse behaviour, and putting on a show of normalcy. The past favoured perpetrators and not victims. The past was full of horrors that victims back then are only just now speaking out about, without fear of being silenced or alienated.

^^ this.
In any era a young girl going into a old mans house who he got tipsy isn't normal though?
I'm glad we don't live in a world where people think this is normal now because its not and never has been.
I wouldn't allow my DC to go in anyone's house alone at a young age, I don't care if it's the NDN or not. I'm glad people are more sceptical now