To use a chokechain?

[AsahiGo]

Looking for some advice and brutal honesty, hence posting in this section haha. Also sorry for the long post.

We've had our gorgeous labsky for two months, he's a second-hand dog, and aside from being an obnoxious teenager at times, he's generally good. However, on walks he is a nightmare.

He drags, and it's BAD. To add context, my husband and I are both powerlifters, and we both struggle with him! We've tried a harness (swiftly found it gives him more power to drag through his shoulders - I swear he thanked us for it!), We've tried a halti. With the halti, it did hinder his pulling BUT, he learnt that if he walks slightly side-ways, he can still do whatever he wants. And then he started walking on his hind legs whilst trying to get the halti off with his front paws.

The other issue we have is that he is fixated on cars. He lunges at anything that moves, and yesterday he knocked my daughter into the road in front of a 4x4 (SHE IS FINE! luckily). He was on a halti and another lead attached to his collar as a backup. He still managed to get off the curb.

At the moment, I'm walking him at 4am (less traffic!) and I'm wrapping the lead around my waist and using my body weight against him. It's the only thing I can think of doing at the moment. Treats don't work - he flat out refuses them on walks, in fact, he completely ignores me.

I loathe choke chains. But I feel like I'm running out of options, and due to his fixation on chasing vehicles, it's only a matter of time before an accident happens. We have seen a couple of trainers, and they didn't know what to do with him. The last guy screamed 'FUCKING HELL!' as he was yanked across his paddock.

Obviously I need to walk this dog, but I don't know how to do it safely anymore. AIBU to try a choke chain?

OP, I never found choke chains very effective. I now have two young, very strong kangal dogs, 65 and 55 kg respectively. They cannot go off lead because kangals have recall issues. I manage to walk them both at once on a field using 4-metre leashes attached to head collars. The smaller kangal has a Gentle Leader. The larger one has a small pony halter, after he ate his way through two Haltis. This system works fine, the only caveat being that, the longer the leash, the more momentum the dog can build up to charge at whatever it finds exciting. Try a pony halter or Gentle Leader, if possible also clipped to the dog’s normal collar or body harness for extra security, and a very short leash, with a thick ergonomic handle and preferably some elastic built in, like this one which is what I use on the end of the long line:

www.amazon.co.uk/Heavy-Bungee-Strong-Training-Medium/dp/B07D9JTSZ1?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Labsky?

A Labrador crossed with a husky.

What made you choose that mixture of breeds?

Yep all the gear no idea! And If people find something that seems to work, it’s very tempting to give up on the actual training! Because problem solved right? The dog I came across last night with all the gear on was very dog aggressive. My dog was bumbling along on a relatively longer lead because he was calm and not pulling at all, the woman had the dog with the kit very close to her but dog was snarling/growling and clearly upset, she had physical control over her dog but no emotional or mental control (or connection)

Hi OP, I would book an appointment with a behaviourist and get to the bottom of any fears or anxieties he may have quickly, as training will be hard and not as effective while he has these underlying issues. I have had a few rescues in the past, dogs and horses, and I have had to call in specialist help with a couple of them when they proved beyond me. Every single time I wished I had done it sooner, as it would have make the animal happier and my life much easier! As your dog came through a private adoption, you will never really know what went on. People responsible for fucking an animal up are rarely honest about EVERYTHING. We have just taken on a small dog through a private adoption (massively incompetent owner was threatening to have her destroyed) and thought she was just neglected and untrained. She also turned out to be abused and is fear aggressive. I have watched hours of dog training videos, read loads of books but nothing is tailored for her so it has limited affect. She is off to see a very well recommended behaviourist in November, she would be going sooner if he had the time! They are expensive but worth every penny. If you still need a trainer, get someone who knows the breed, you might as well be setting light to your money otherwise. That is fantastic news that you now have somewhere to let him off the lead safely, wearing them out is key! But please do not tie yourself to him, that is so dangerous. I get your desperation, you are trying to get him out and keep everyone safe, but that is not the solution. Good luck!

Eta: "choke chains" should only ever be used on dogs that don't need them. Slip leads are useful for well trained gun dogs!

Maybe look into dog agility? It's good for brain, exercise and working off lead!

@Pookie, not all dogs respond well to the kind of training you seem to be advocating. ‘Primitive’ breeds, including Huskies, are difficult in that respect. In addition to kangals which I cannot let off lead, I have a border collie who follows me everywhere and never caused a moment’s trouble - not all dogs are the same and a difficult dog is not necessarily a reflection on the owner’s ability or dedication.

It’s not true control though and no one should mislead OP into thinking that a particular brand will solve the issue.

@makingmammaries

I’m not advocating any particular training - I am telling OP that a lead on its own isn’t going to solve this, which she knows. Many owners think a problem is solved by a piece of material and metal - I call bullshit that’s all. It’s a tool, not a solution.

In my own opinion it’s probably not a great idea to walk your dog aggressive dog in a heavily used dog area unless you are fully confident you can control it - clearly the woman I encountered did have the physical control, but the dog was agitated. I’m not saying people are wrong to use particular leads, or that all dogs can be trained in one way.

I second the advice of @steppemum

It will be hard and time consuming, but it's the only thing that works and is permanent.

A choke-chain is not going to help you. He will simply pull that too and as it slips tight around he neck he will have trouble breathing and you'll be able to hear him weezing. I have heard it many times before and it always makes me feel awful.

Training is the only way. Stand still whenever he puts weight on the leash and only move when he releases it. Sometimes you can help speed things along by calling him back. This will usually only work if he gets confused and looks back at you as to why you are not moving.

Do not let your daughter walk him alone for the time being.

@AsahiGo yes, a harness that will allow him to pull will help him direct his energy.

Training to walk on a loose lead (which should be a priority) is always easier once the dog has been exercised... Which is difficult because if they don't have good recall/you can't get them to an open area to give them a run because of the pulling you're already at a loss.

For our collie cross we had a massive 30m training lead so she could run herself ragged without having an issue with recall (she was a sod, perfect recall and almost instant obedience training.... If she felt like it and no food motivation so really tricky to tempt back) before we tried to reinforce things like loose lead walking.

Whenever you see a "problem" dog being trained by an expert on TV or similar i guarantee you someone has exercised them intensely beforehand.

The best long lead is a horse lunge lead. that will give you some length to run.
I would use it by letting him start to run them calling him back with loads of enthusiasm, and repeat repeat, so he basically yoyos from you to the middle of the field and back 20 times. That way he never reaches the end of the line either, so no big lunge.

@Kuga....no I don't like Cesar's methods. His alpha and dominance theory are outdated and dismissed by most qualified behaviorists.
www.petful.com/behaviors/cesar-millan-critics/

I agree with him that dogs need boundaries, I just think his methods are cruel. Pinning and rolling dogs is not the way to teach them. We stopped smacking children, why would we do this with dogs? Dogs want to please, so much better to get the dogs trust rather than use aversives.
I remember as a child, my dad training our dogs. He shouted at them, they became obedient dogs, but I remember one dog flinching as she was trying to get it right but hated being shouted at. My dad loved his dogs, but even as a child, I just thought it was cruel.

Thank you everyone, I've only read through the replies quickly, will read through properly in a minute. My local school has just emailed me back - they will rent their netball courts and car park to me. Yeah, it's on concrete, but he can't escape, I can tire him out on it and do some training. They actually knew who I was from the email - the woman has seen me out and about with him >.<

pp that asked why I chose this dog - I didn't choose this breed especially. I grew up on with a shit tonne of working GSD's, Labradors, so I've always leaned more towards a lab. I have kids, and both Labradors and huskies are known to be rambunctious, but great with kids. They both have good temperaments. The exercise never threw me off - dh used to be an ultra runner, I used to be in harriers, we're both all-weather exercisers.
in regards of how we thought we'd exercise the dog - we live on the outskirts of a massive city, but where we live there's a massive country park, forestry, woods, green area etc. We live twenty minutes walk from some beautiful woods - but we gotta cross a dual-carriage way to get to it!
We've booked him in for doggy swimming lessons too.

He did come from a family with kids, which also helped us make up our mind - we took everything they told us with a very, very big pinch of salt, because you do, don't you? We've noticed a few things he's 'iffy' with and thought 'ah something's happened there', which we're working with. For example, he didn't know what rain was. We've had torrential rain here for the last three days so that was fun!

We have a ten meter horse lunge. I mostly use it on his mid-dayish walk to let him potter about on a small field etc. It's quieter then so not as many distractions, and it's more manageable.

My kids don't walk him! They do come with me in the afternoon. When he knocked my youngest into the road, it was because he darted behind me and caught her.

You’re asking us whether you should choke your dog or not?

Choke chains are absolutely disgusting.

Use a harness or give your dog to someone who can care for it properly.

What is it with all of these awful dog posts lately, ‘should I kill my dog’ ‘should I choke my dog’ - is there a dog troll?

I shall be flamed for this (always happens) but choke chains used PROPERLY are really good things. If you make sure it is not put on upside down (in which case it will stay tight) and use it in the correct way it is not harsh. My GSD bitch had one from the start and was walking in a well mannered way from the start.

With a large older dog I think you would need help from an experienced trainer otherwise you and/or the dog may be hurt.

If you want to pm me I can give you details of a very thoughtful and experienced trainer.

To all of you who disagree with me I ask: If you were a dog would you prefer to have something tied around your nose, wear a silly harness suitable tor sled dogs or walk on a loose lead by your owner's heel and not be at risk of running into the road under a car.

@SusanneLinder my grandad used the 'rolled up paper'. I was talking to someone of his age the other day and he mentioned rubbing the dogs nose in his poo if he went in the house >.

I have a third-hand husky cross. She's mixed with a greyhound, malamute and border collie.... So she's fast, stubborn and clever

She also nearly killed us both by leaping out in front of a car. That was the day I bought a Halti.

The best thing I've found for her is a Perfect Fit harness. Anything that clips only on the back is useless, she needs the front clip as well, and I kid you not - she walks like a little angel in this. Combine it with a double ended Halti lead, and it's ideal. If she does pull, a light touch on the front clip, and she's sorted. Highly recommended.

I second a head collar. It saved my relationship with my rescue lab who was about a year old when we got her and she would lunge at anyone who walked past.

It was a temporary thing and my lab is now 11 years old and as calm as you like but back then she was like a wild thing - she brought me to tears with her behaviour many a time!

Go with training every time. I wouldn't use a choke chain on the worst of dogs. Good training is worth every penny.

Sympathies, OP. I have a large puller too (just pulling on the lead though, no lunging, and it's calm, purposeful 'I want to get where I'm going faster than you're walking!' type pulling, not excitable).

I've tried all kinds of leads, collars and harnesses (including figure of 8), and some reduce the pulling for a while, but nothing stops it.

I'm sure previous posters are right that only training will stop it. But my dog is not remotely interested in treats while out on a walk, not interested in me either, doesn't care if I stop every time he pulls (obediently stops, then just carries on pulling again every time we set off). Most training advice seems to focus on these methods, but they honestly don't work on my dog.

Thank you all, @Underdone I've spent the last few days crying lol, I'm kinda glad I'm not the only one?

Guys, we do have a dogmatic halti/head collar thing. Is there a brand or style you'd recommend? a lot of people have mentioned the figure of 8 lead. My issue with his halti is, when he lunges at cars, he gets onto his back legs and he's on a pivot, or he spins out and his arse nearly goes into the road. The halti does deter his dragging, but not his lunging. I'll do the 'drag/stop' training. I do do it, very hard to do on a hill :/ but he does get fed up and wait. when we start off again, he goes at it with gusto, and it's like once he gets that sudden burst of energy he builds up momentum instantly and its hard to plant my feet. we'll get there.

My cousin a dog Walker told me to get a half check chain , they arent called choke here anymore it does help and doesn't damage

@lazylinguist - you've described mine :o
It's hard to explain on here, but once he's stopped because I've stopped, and he's sat down and he "looks" relaxed, and there's a moment of 'ok, he's calmed down, ready to go then', instantly he pulls and he's back into it. There's no build-up. He doesn't need any time to gain momentum, and sometimes I can't stay grounded and my legs move of their own accord because if they don't I'll be on my stomach.

He does have the odd tantrum. First time he wore the halti he lay down on the grass and refused to move.

@Kko1986 He had one of them with his, but it was too small and it rubbed a bald spot around his neck. He's got quite a long neck so we were advised to get a wider collar so the pressure isn't solely on one spot.

@TwattingDog that's quite an energetic dog you have lol, and I imagine one that sheds loads!