To use a chokechain?

[AsahiGo]

Looking for some advice and brutal honesty, hence posting in this section haha. Also sorry for the long post.

We've had our gorgeous labsky for two months, he's a second-hand dog, and aside from being an obnoxious teenager at times, he's generally good. However, on walks he is a nightmare.

He drags, and it's BAD. To add context, my husband and I are both powerlifters, and we both struggle with him! We've tried a harness (swiftly found it gives him more power to drag through his shoulders - I swear he thanked us for it!), We've tried a halti. With the halti, it did hinder his pulling BUT, he learnt that if he walks slightly side-ways, he can still do whatever he wants. And then he started walking on his hind legs whilst trying to get the halti off with his front paws.

The other issue we have is that he is fixated on cars. He lunges at anything that moves, and yesterday he knocked my daughter into the road in front of a 4x4 (SHE IS FINE! luckily). He was on a halti and another lead attached to his collar as a backup. He still managed to get off the curb.

At the moment, I'm walking him at 4am (less traffic!) and I'm wrapping the lead around my waist and using my body weight against him. It's the only thing I can think of doing at the moment. Treats don't work - he flat out refuses them on walks, in fact, he completely ignores me.

I loathe choke chains. But I feel like I'm running out of options, and due to his fixation on chasing vehicles, it's only a matter of time before an accident happens. We have seen a couple of trainers, and they didn't know what to do with him. The last guy screamed 'FUCKING HELL!' as he was yanked across his paddock.

Obviously I need to walk this dog, but I don't know how to do it safely anymore. AIBU to try a choke chain?

It not just about a harness/lead. You need to train him. Changing a harness is not going to train him.

@AsahiGo

We had him when he was a year old , had only lived on his own and lived in a urban setting so poor old boy was over excited to have two collie brothers a huge garden and loads of freedom , everything he did was at a very enthusiastic 100 mph but yes eventually he calmed himself down and became much more sensible both on the lead and generally ( having him castrated helped too )
Give yours time

Have you tried a halti harness?

Yeah, up until 18 months exercise does need to be restricted somewhat but huskies need lots and lots of exercise when full grown, and that's on top of brain games and training/scent work.

The Blue Cross recommends an absolute minimum of two hours per day. And that's everyday, no matter how wet, cold, windy and miserable it is outdoors. Some breeds are happy to miss a day/have the odd plod around the block - huskies certainly don't fall into that category.

I've seen it on here before that huskies aren't just a breed, they're a lifestyle and I have to say I agree. I've never met a husky owner who says their dog is easy - it's breed that requires lots of time and dedication, seven days a week.

Not everyone is cut out for that kind of work and that's okay. I certainly wouldn't be willing to dedicate that much time and effort to a dog.

@Frazzledbutcalm you're not being rude, you're coming off as honest and blunt which is what I want. i'm not looking at a quick fix, I don't expect a magical item to do all the work for me, I'm after advice, tips, anything I what I can do to help. I know I haven't had him long. It comes across like I'm trying a different technique every five minutes - I'm not. I'm trying to be as consistent as I can be. I'm just asking if there's anything I could do better, differently, as I get unsure and there's so many conflicting information, opinions, arguments. If that makes sense? I'm not very eloquent. I have all the time in the world for him; if I didn't, I wouldn't have got him. We waited ten years to get a dog so we would be in a position where I could dedicate time to him. I wouldn't be (getting flamed) on MN asking people for what they think if I didn't value other's feedback.

@Hereshopingforimprovement we tried a Dogmatic one - it hinders the pulling a bit, but he's learnt how to get around it. When he goes for cars, it causes him to twist/lunge on a pivot, so doesn't really work.

@adaline we didn't think 'huskies are cute, lets get one'. It weren't a spur of the moment thing. We did look into it a lot. It was actually ten years of wanting/researching dogs (we wanted to wait until the kids were older). I grew up and worked with working line Labradors and GSD's, so it threw me (literally?) when my boy pulled me. I've never had that to that extent before.

People are saying you can’t stop the pulling with a lead, that’s what people are getting at. There are leads which reduce the damage to the dog and human but I do not believe that for most dogs the lead or harness is the sole only reason they stop pulling. I have reduced pulling damage to me and dog by using a bungee, but he is still pulling around cars because I am only 6m into training him to stop pulling whilst avoiding triggering situations. I have persistently taught ‘wait’ and he never knows if he will get a treat or not, so it works and he will stop of his own accord now.

You will end up spending hundreds on different things when really you need to put all that time into standing your garden with the dog training training training

Have you tried doing an opposing behaviour for the lunges?

So when you see/hear traffic approaching, get him into a sit at the side of the road and get him to focus on you. You could find a bench near a road and just sit there with him - get him sitting down and every time traffic passes, get him to look at you, and then treat treat treat. It's positive reinforcement and it works!

@PookieDo thanks I get it now lol. I was trying to train him how to walk, on the walk, so yeah, I will start off again, from scratch, in the garden.

I have Labradors and they are impossible to walk without a choke lead. Chain sounds worse than they are. The vet actually recommended it to me years ago & they are a blessing. The dog learns quite quickly not to pull on it so they are not cruel at all. I find the collar chokes them anyway when the pull on normal lead and you drag them back. I have 3 labradors, 15,13 & 1 and all get walked like this since eldest was about 1.

@AsahiGo here's a pic similar to what I use.

he will more often than not sit at roads before we cross, or at least 'wait' if there is no traffic, and dh and I have 'watched traffic' with him. its hit or miss on whether he will sit when there are cars about - Ill try and explain, but it's almost like he's so overwhelmed/over stimulated by just the walk, anyone on the other end of the lead doesn't exist. it feels like treats are refused because th walk is the treat. Every walk is like he's seeing the world for the first time, if that makes sense?
I will do the 'watch me' training with him at home.

You will hear a lot of people say ‘x lead/harness solved the problem’ but I don’t think this is always the case. It makes it easier to control the dog but I see people all the time, just yesterday in fact walking a dog with all the ‘kit’ on the dog, and the dog is on a very short lead, under full control of the human but the dog is still straining under all the expensive kit and not displaying calm behaviour or listening to its owner at all

@AsahiGo I totally get what you mean, he’s not being motivated by food as he’s so excited to be outside. That’s why you need to gain his full trust and attention indoors first. He also knows where he is going and is just desperate to get to the park I imagine

@starflake - my vet uses a slip-leash, and he recommended that to me, but I wanted to try other stuff first. Plus, my boy is an escape artist so I was worried he'd manage to get it over his head and be off.
I feel like a scumbag asking about choke chains. I found irl that people of a 'certain age' are very comfortable using them, but most people think you're a monster for suggesting it.

My husband used to be a Guide Dog trainer nearly 40 years ago when check chains were the accepted method of walking a dog. He was trained to use one correctly - the right sort of links, the way it goes round the dogs neck etc and it would never occur to him to walk a dog without one.

He has a mostly husky and he is a big powerful dog that can pull him off his feet with but when he has the chain on his neck he walks like a lamb. He has a harness for play time but he needs the chain to walk from the house to the car and anywhere where he has to be in close proximity to people. He loves everyone but he is big and friendly and we prefer people to approach him rather than let him introduce himself!

Used properly the chain is a valuable tool and doesn't cause harm or pain but used wrongly can be dreadful. ~

I would suggest you find someone who is able to train you to use it safely for your dog's sake but don't try it until someone has helped you.

BTW I was very surprised when we dropped our dogs off at kennels that they said they would only walk them with chains because it was the safest way of handling a strange dog.

starflake .. if your dogs will only walk with a choke chain then you’re also not training them properly.

Choke chains are just that choke ... they’re cruel and unnecessary.

OP .. please get yourself trained in how to train your dog.

@PookieDo all the gear no idea? I feel like I'm like that lol. I need a decent SOMETHING, because the halti I was using, the harness, the collar, he still managed to get too near the road. If we were on a field and I was being dragged, it wouldn't be great obviously lol, but he won't be going under the wheels of a car. I think what I'm after is something I can use that will keep him safe and enable me to keep him away from the road in the meantime whilst we're still working on not pulling. I'll figure something out. I'm too stubborn to give up on him.

I actually marched my dogs out of a kennels when they tried to use choke chains on my dogs ( lurchers). It could snap their very long necks. Slip leads ( fabric) should be used. Naive I was for not checking.

I agree with other posters that state that harnesses are only a temp measure to get your dog under control whilst you are training them.

You don`t like him then?

Your dog is not getting too much exercise, it may well not be getting enough. I adore Huskies but couldn't give one the exercise it needs so haven't got one. My friend who does trains for Ironman competitions and takes them on the 20 mile training runs and bike rides. She collapses when she gets home and her dogs still have energy. They aren't like other dogs. She also plays hunting games with them where they have to find things and let's them pull a sled around. Loads of positive reinforcement and the constant message that she is head of the pack.

Repetition is key when training dogs. It sounds like this one was never walked which means it is untrained and excited, plus getting used to you as owner. When I had a dog that pulled I stopped every single time. Yes it did take hours and hours of walking for a week, but it did work. Someone we know can't be bothered with that and got a choke chain for her dog, now the dog hates walks but still pulls.

I have Labradors and they are impossible to walk without a choke lead.

Only because you haven't trained them properly. Millions of labradors are walked perfectly fine without choke chains everyday so they're clearly not a necessity!

OP please don't go down the route of choke chains. They were used in the past because we didn't know any better and because they appeared to work (and they do, by hurting your dog). Now we can get the same results with much kinder, more humane methods - it may take a bit longer but it won't hurt your dog and destroy your trust with them.

If he's too excited to be trained by the road, then start indoors with no distractions. Practise commands until they're solid and then practise in the garden. Then when that's done, increase the distraction level until he can do it anywhere. It will take time (as in months/years) but if you work at it, you will end up with a dog that listens to you regardless of the situation it finds itself in.

I would never use a choke chain on any dog. A harness is great to stop pressure on the neck/throat from pulling, but the only real way to stop a dog from pulling is training. Use a non-aversive method (a chest harness is good) and practise, practise practise. It takes a long time and can be disheartening but it can be done if you're determined enough.

Please do not use a choke chain!
It sounds like you have a very active dog. Do you live by a beach/lake/playing field/ if so I would use them a lot. Long walks are not enough for husky × they need to get rid af a lot of energy. Waste his/her energy
I have had dogs like this in the past and I put them in the harbour to swim until he gave up. He did not pull after until he got excited and energetic then he went back in. Get him worn out and I am almost certain you will see a better dog.

Your best option, probably, is a halti as well as a harness with a front clip. The harness should clip between the front legs and not on top of the back. Using both will give you the most control.

At the same time you need to train him not to pull and not to lunge at cars. The best exercise to stop pulling is to stop every time he pulls, wait him out and as soon as he looks at you to turn and walk in the opposite direction. You will need to do this consistently, every single time he pulls for a few weeks for it to work.

Desensitizing him to cars as suggested above is also something you need to do, but this will take weeks and possibly months, it’s not something he will get over with one 20 minute session.

I’ve read what you said about lack of safe open spaces near you but can you not pop him in the car and drive somewhere open and safe? What was your plan for walks when you decided to get a large breed, crazily energetic puppy? Huskies need an enormous amount of exercise and if he takes after that side of his breeding he won’t be able to cope with 30 minutes round the block twice a day.

We had a rescue aged 3 that dragged me down the street. He came with a halti a long lead. It was a nightmare.

As soon as we got him I started lead training. I watched loads of youtube videos and went with the method which is simply as they pull you stand still, or start walking abckwards, until the take the strain off the lead. then you start forwards again.

the first morning, we went literally one step at a time and it took us 20 minutes ot get to the end of the road.

It was bloody hard work, and we had to be very consistent. it took a couple of weeks to go from drag to hard pull.
Then another couple to go from hard pull to managable pull.

It took 5 months to go from managable pull to loose lead. 2 years on, he is still not perfect and pulls (but not hard pull or drag) for others, but not for me.

One big thing that helped was that we veyr quickly taught him to come back to us. (not perfect recall, but enough to let him off in a field and let him run around, then we built it up form there)
we taught him with a 10 m rope, and 4 people with pockest full of treats. We stood in a big circle and took turns to call him, he quickly associated his name with the treats, and then we could let him off in the field, and do the same.

Once we started giving him proper exercise, he became 100% easier.