To think no matter how amicable children lose out in a divorce?

[Geronimo8]

DH and his ex-wife spilt over 10 years ago. We now have two DC together plus his DC EOW. When I see how much our two get from him I can't help but think how little the older two get of him. AIBU to think no matter how amicable that kids really do lose out in a divorce?

My parents divorced when I was 3 and I haven't lost out in any way. My memory doesn't go back as far as their arguments and all I know is them being friends. We do things together as a family and no one has lost out. In your situation yes two children are losing out but it's not fair to say that all kids lose out

It’s always harder for kids from first families And their mothers when their dads only have them EOW. Basically he only has them for the fun stuff and doesn’t do any parenting and because he helped create 2 more kids with you he probably now can’t even afford to take them all out together as often as he’d like. So they lose out on what their mum might have been able to do for them if she had EOW too and could also do fun stuff. It’s a better idea to have alternate weekends and fixed weekdays so the kids don’t lose out

@SnuggyBuggy please don’t base your opinion on a child having two homes on a Jacqueline Wilson novel!!!

I can assure you that in 6 years, my daughter hasn’t taken so much as a handbag between her 2 homes, let alone a suitcase.

She lives in both homes, both are fully kitted out with her stuff. Even when holiday packing she always turns down the chance to bring something from the other home - because she has stuff she likes in both places. The only thing she’s ever had to carry between them is her mobile phone!

I googled the book, and the premise that the character wants her parents to get back together - and comes to the understanding that she can’t have it.

On the very same day I told my daughter about the divorce, she said “you and daddy need to find your true loves!” (she was 6 and quite Disney at the time!)

Jacqueline Wilson is a novelist. Novels are better when the child is treated badly. That’s really not real life for all children of divorced parents you know

@Geronimo8 that sounds like you had a hard time as a child, I’m sorry to read it. Sounds like it may explain why you didn’t have a problem with your husband not seeing his children much and starting a new family - sounds like growing up you learned that fathers are superfluous What I see as bloody poor - him creating the “sad shaped hole” you talk about, you probably see as a high level of involvement

I actually agree with you OP but I find that a lot of people are in denial as to the long term impact that divorce/separation causes. I am not in any way saying people should stay together if they are unhappy but I just wish there was more acknowledgement of the reality. Me and my DSis have firsthand experience and I would say we were both damaged in different ways and I don't think either of our DPs really understand this although they tried their best (lets face it, 'amicable divorce' is rarely the reality, if people got on that well they wouldn't split up in the first place). For me, it feels like it has been years of managing feelings and 'being fair' to the point where I don't even know I'm doing it and being worried about every big event (graduation, weddings etc.). I am not trying to feel sorry for myself; I just hate this attitude of 'kids will adjust' (with no acknowledgement of the fact that the effects go on forever) and 'as long as their DPs are happy it's all OK'. Because it isn't. I am not talking about situations where one partner was abusive just to be clear.

@RuffleCrow before my daughter was born, I spent years living away Mon-Fri for work, so I am an adult who knows what it’s like - and chose - to have 2 homes.

I’m not going to say it’s fine for everyone - it’s not just about practicalities, but also personality. But I think you also shouldn’t assume it doesn’t work for anyone.

My daughter happily goes to and fro between her 2 homes. I know I have a vested interest in believing that, but I can honestly say there has never been a problem from ages 6-11, and she isn’t one not to speak up

The dates she goes aren’t fixed due to both my and her father’s shifts. She doesn’t care. In the morning she’ll say “where am I tonight?” It’s in a shared calendar on her phone, but she just doesn’t care, would rather just ask in the morning.

She has some control - I’ve had a Sunday afternoon phone call from her “mum, stepmum is doing a roast - I love roast - can I stay til tomorrow instead?”. Yep.

She has to do a school NSPCC exercise last year, where they wrote a list of places where they feel safe. She wrote “my 2 homes”. She flies around happy as Larry - 2 homes, both with all the stuff she needs, and an adoring parent. Frankly, given that you can use a Netflix account anywhere, 2 homes is no issue

I know I have been very lucky with her personality and her dad having the same child centred approach to flexibility. We never have to drag her away from something fun because it’s drop off time - we just call and delay. That’s rare - but knowing you can is great. If she gets a good sleepover offer, he won’t say “that’s my night, no”. Instead we have a nice easy convo: “she’s been invited to L’s on Sat - is that OK? How about she does Mon & Tue with you not just Mon?”

Please don’t think - you and other posters - that it’s not possible for a child to feel happy and secure and perfectly at ease having 2 homes.

@Ellisandra You've made some pretty big leaps there, none of which are right. I don't see men as superfluous nor do I think my DH has anything like a high level of involvement with his older two - my point was quite the opposite. I didn't start this thread to talk about the million reasons our situation has ended up like this because it's pointless. DH didn't choose this. He does have a huge level of involvement in our younger two's lives. I didn't realise just how much I missed out on and likewise how much my stepkids have missed out until I saw how much he brings to the younger two. I guess you don't know what you're missing until you see it.

I suppose his ex-wife doesn't see how much hers have missed out on. I think it's quite easy for adults to assume that if a relationship didn't work for them then the partner isn't that important to the children either. But it's the kids that bear of the brunt of of the fallout.

I get that real life isn't a book but I think it goes to show that if kids aren't put first after something like a divorce they suffer. There must be real life kids in situations where their parents are putting their own needs first after a divorce and the kids feel like leftovers.

I personally would be reluctant to put my child through an arrangement like that unless she was old enough to really advocate that it was what she wanted. I'd rather she spend most of her time with her dad and have a stable home than have to keep moving just so we could both feel we were getting a fair share.

Children lose out when second families are created.

We can try all we like to deny it, but significantly, first kids usually miss out to the second batch - on both sides.

I am against blended families as very few manage to succeed. Almost always it is the children who suffer because of adult choices

@Snuggybuggy I don’t see it as her moving around so that we get a fair share of her - but so that she gets a fair share of us.

It works, and I can’t tell you how relieved I am that it does. I know people can think I’m in denial because it’s too hard to accept otherwise. I can’t tell you how often I give a mental thanks that it does!

Divorce wasn’t something I did lightly. I stayed for 4 long years after I discovered his cheating, instigated counselling, made more effort than he did ... all because I agree with you that the ideal is one home with both parents.

I’ve given up time with her because I think it’s better for her - I’ve spent the last 6 Xmas days on my own, because her father’s family is local and I think that’s nicer for her - and I don’t want her sharing the day, arriving late or leaving early.

I disagree that your hypothetical decision to leave her mainly with her father creates a stable home. That suggests my daughter has no stable home, when in fact she has two.

All children are different.
One child might easily feel at home in both places, stable.
Another child might do only one night a fortnight at their dad’s - and as a result never feel that they live there, always feel that they are visiting, feel like The Suitcase Child.

You have to keep an open mind. I may have some hard times ahead if my child as a teen decides she wants one home, and that’s her dad’s. But don’t assume that it’s not possible to feel stable with two homes.

@Ellisandra, I wouldn't dream of telling you it was the wrong decision or insinuate that you are in denial at all. I can only say that I think I would have struggled with it as a child which is why it wouldn't be the go to for my own children.

I also imagine it can work better if there is some flexibility for things like the child's hobbies and events. With the book example the other issue was that neither parent could be bothered to provide a decent home for the child. Some parents are just selfish.

@Snuggybuggy I think that’s a really good point about your “go to”. I don’t think there is enough said about shared parenting that works. It’s one reason I get a bee in my bonnet to share on here!

I think it would be so helpful if people could hear about situations that work.

My friend has a pattern that I think sounds like non stop turnaround. They use a 2 week rota that means their kids are never more than 2 nights away from seeing the other parent. I heard a mutual friend criticise it, poor kids, always moving. But my friend said she’d offered lots of other suggestions to her children. It wasn’t for her benefit - she hated it! Would much rather have fixed days and blocks of time. Both kids said they loved never going long without seeing the other parent. They’re older now, and both kids have different patterns, as they love have a night a week 1:1.

It’s only a resource like MN that really gives examples, I think - and they get drowned out by people saying it’s awful for the kids.
I think it would be good if people could hear about many different ways to do two homes, and give them ideas. Ideally, those ways coming from the children who have lived them.

Of course they don't always lose out. My 7 yr old is actually happier now we are separated and have new partners. We never argued in front of DD and I always thought we had an amazing marriage up until he cheated on me last year. I was shocked and devastated but met someone amazing three months after and we now could not be happier. DD adores him and he has fitted perfectly into our family. We have loads of fun together and DD said she is pleased me and her dad split up as she now gets to meet lots of new people.
My ex and I co parent 50/50 and it has all worked out brilliantly. My partner does not live with us yet but stays every weekend or we go and stay with him (Lives 2 hours away). We are all very happy especially my child.

I agree with you too, about hobbies and events. I read on here about kids kissing parties because dad won’t take them on His Weekend.

I’m not blaming men alone - just, this is MN so those are the examples I see.

It’s much easier to put the child first (and allow the party) if you’re not losing out on limited time and know you can say “can she stay an extra night as I won’t see much of her?”.

But you need a divorce where no-one is going to say “and that means you have to refund the maintenance for that night”

Tbh I don’t think my XH would argue the toss like that - but I actually have never claimed maintenance (we share care but she is more with me) and one reason is because I didn’t ever want that to get in the way of flexibility.

I just don’t think we have many models of shared care to look at, around us... but I do think that’s increasing all the time.

It really depends. If there is enough money for two households and one/both parents are bad parents or the children wouldn’t see them much regardless (with nanny/at boarding school) then no. Not everyone has a good relationship with their parent(s) to loose.

It doesnt really matter whether they are better off or not. It's like saying its better if one of the parents doesn't die. Of course it is, but shit happens.
Sometimes this stuff can't be helped, even if both parents are doing their absolute best. And sometimes divorce is the best, healthiest and happiest option for all parties.
If you can't cure it, you must endure it, regardless of any hypothetical 'best' situation

Nope. My parents' relationship was horrible. It was awful living with them and seeing that agression day to day.
I wish they had split sooner.

I think the key thing is to be child led and not to do what you want and tell yourself the child will be OK despite any signs of the contrary. I've had some friends who've really suffered for the poor behaviour of their divorced or non resident parents. I think some 50 50 arrangements are for selfish reasons and some people clearly do start second families with little regard for their current children.

On the flip side I also know a happy blended family who on paper have almost everything working against them. I think it's a combination of the parents being decent people and luck that all the members seemed to get on with each other.

Ex DH and I just grew apart. There was never any arguments, other than the normal married life stuff. We decided to go our separate ways and I have to say my exdh is a much better dad for it. He has them EOW, but they can ring him at any time and either get the bus to see him or he picks them up /I drop them off.

We still get on great, he comes over with his new DP and I go to theirs. We have keys to each others houses and we Co parent about everything. They break a rule at his, I stick to the punishment hhe gives and vice versa. We spend Christmas together and generally all get on really well. I don't think my kids have suffered at all and neither do they. It's hard sometimes, but we honestly are both much happier and so are the kids.

My dad could have done a lot more to be present in my life.. But as an adult looking back I feel my mum could have helped a lot more too ... He wasn't abusive. He was just a bit shit but his own upbringing had been properly disastrous. My stepmum was only too happy to see the back of me and certainly wasn't going to help either because 'why should she?'

Its interesting that you minimise your father's failings and blame the women - your father didn't bother with you (which must be incredibly hurtful) and chose to marry a woman who was unkind to his child. But you justify this by saying he had a difficult childhood and your mother should have tried harder to make him spend time with you.

In your adult relationship, you have again chosen a man who doesn't see much of his kids, and are still making excuses for him and blaming the women in his life for not making it easier for him. You openly acknowledge that his older children have a father shaped hole, but don't seem to think this is something that can be changed. It's just "sad" and the fault of "the divorce" rather than something the man is responsible for.

I don't mean to be harsh - maybe seeing the harm done to your step kids is making you think about your own childhood?

The issue IMO isn’t the divorce per se, it’s that your H has had a second family.

I do think in all cases children will suffer from divorce but you also have to put it into perspective - they would be suffering more by the parents living together unhappily, or one bejng abusive and several other scenarios. Its too easy to look back and think of all the good times rather than the bad.

Of course they don't always lose out. My 7 yr old is actually happier now we are separated and have new partners.

Ask her again in 5 years. I know quite a few people who didn't express their dissatisfaction with step-parents etc until teenage years or older.

I do think in all cases children will suffer from divorce but you also have to put it into perspective - they would be suffering more by the parents living together unhappily

How are we defining "unhappy" here?

What if the DH wants sex 3 times a week and the DW wants it twice a month, but otherwise they get along, aren't arguing, and coparenting the DCs. Does the DH's unhappiness mean divorcing and finding a new partner who wants is daily is the best outcome for the family?

Tbh I think a lot of married fathers are bad fathers who don’t bother with their kids. Some mothers too but I think fathers who work long hours or simply don’t have time for their kids is more common. Growing up my father spent no quality time with me - if he was in he was working, getting drunk or doing something else he wanted to do which didn’t include me.

I know a lot of men, who yes aren’t as bad as my father, but who work long hours but spend their leisure time doing their “hobby” etc. One male friend works away and only comes back once a fortnight to his four kids. Sometimes divorced fathers actually spend more quality time with their children than if they were together with the mother.

@edgeofheaven - teenagers have angst about everything. It doesn’t mean that there was some underlying issue - it could just be a typical teenage rebellion.

I think it's absurd to say a 7 year old is happier with their parents having new partners, they are not old enough to fully process what's going on. The long term outcome might be better but it's very common for parents to speak on their DC's behalf and insist they are pleased with adult choices that have been made without their input.

My DPs said we were happy about a lot of shit that we certainly were not with and when we have raised those issues as adults they've acted utterly shocked.