Okay, about teachers...

[KitKat1985]

Okay I'm being brave here. I know a few people who happen to be teachers. Whenever they talk about their jobs, there's a real 'no other profession has to work as hard as us' vibe to their speech. I am fully aware and in agreement that it's a stressful job with long hours and ridiculous amount of pressure if you don't count the long holidays but it's hardly the only profession that has these issues. I myself am a nurse, and 14 hour shifts on an under-staffed ward with no breaks and several severely ill / abusive patient to look after are hardly a picnic either. But whenever I discuss work with teacher friends there's a definite 'if you want to talk about stress you should try being a teacher' element to the conversation, and it's starting to really get on my nerves. Lots of jobs are stressful, teaching isn't the only one! And it's only teachers I know that seem to have this general attitude about their profession. AIBU? Is it really more stressful than any other profession out there?

Two main issues with teachers that make it feel like the worst professions :
Nurses are 'angels', Firemen/women and Police are 'heroes' Teachers are 'workshy' 'lazy', 'long holidays'
Read any form of press you like and that is what you see, for a job that is as difficult and underfunded and yet as important as nurses and police and fire it's the only one that is constantly disparaged.
The 'long holidays' (shortest in Europe) are for the benefit of the children, not the staff btw. So those children can have some sort of childhood that's not all work and stress at school with the continual assessment (only have to read the threads on here about SATs and 8 year olds with anxiety to see why the holidays are important and probably for the children, not actually long enough). No one becomes a teacher just for the holidays, and if they do they wont last more than a couple of years.

Second issue is that teachers have no right to refuse to teach abusive, violent pupils. Threw a chair at you? they will get a restorative chat and back in your class later. Schools are either discouraged or down right refused the ability to expel pupils and there are a sorry few schools left to cope with children who have severe behaviour issues.
Police have the equipment, support and training to deal with violent people.
NHS have the right to refuse treatment - From NHS website "If you are violent or abusive to NHS staff, you may be refused NHS hospital treatment, or given a verbal or written warning before treatment is withheld or withdrawn. Violent or abusive behaviour could include verbal abuse, threats, violence, drug or alcohol abuse in hospital, and destruction of property. "
Both fire and ambulance would usually have police support if attending a location where there is known to be weapons.
Teachers have no such support. We teach children after all... yet children are capable of coming to school with a knife, of behaving in a violent manner and teachers are not allowed to even touch them, and could be disciplined or lose their job if they did.

The school I worked in had a pupil sexually assault a member of staff. We could not expel that pupil. They were 'risk assessed' and were returned to school with a male PSA to accompany them... some of the time.

Teachers have very few options when it comes to discipline, often very little support from the senior management and no cooperation from parents (of children with very poor behaviour)

Quarter of teachers experience violence from pupils weekly

Teachers sent home without pay for refusing to teach violent pupils

Verbal abuse from pupils a top stress factor

Let’s be clear though, I loved and love both of my careers, both jobs are among the best in the world, and I’d never not be a midwife. When teaching goes right, the feeling you get from it can only be described as exhilarating. I’d never tell either of my daughters not to be a teacher, because my experience probably won’t be theirs. However, the nervous breakdown 18 years ago sort of took the gloss off it for me. I think it’s telling that there aren’t an awful lot of class teachers my age.

@LolaSmiles

Do you honestly think that parents who complain about teachers ( having encountered many over many years ) are the same as flat earthers / anti vac?

Do you see how this arrogant ?

Of course there are many people who have first hand experience of pretty rubbish teachers. Just because one is not a teacher, doesn’t mean that cannot identify a useless one.

I’m not a plasterer but can tell the difference between a good one and rubbish one !

I never got time off for Christmas shopping either. And to those of you who say we should take INSET days out of our holidays, they are. The Thatcher government made teachers give up 5 days holiday each year for compulsory training.

@binky

So tell us non teachers about inset days...?

It’s not a days holiday so do you get paid?

Teachers get paid a salary, not per hour. A salary is your pay divided by 12 and paid monthly. We would be paid whether it was 'holiday' or 'training'. The point was that it used to be 5 holiday days, now it is 5 days in school doing training.

Children didn't lose 5 days at school for Inset, staff had 5 days holiday removed to become inset days.

Do you honestly think that parents who complain about teachers ( having encountered many over many years ) are the same as flat earthers / anti vac?

Do you see how this arrogant ?
It's not arrogant at all.

A parent who has a concern or query about school or a teacher who wants to raise it with the school in the appropriate way is totally and utterly reasonable.

Anyone not in education who thinks their own little conspiracies and chips on shoulder means they can make sweeping generalisations about a profession is an absolute idiot and is absolute on par with flat earthers and anti vaxxers because like those people, they are so invested in whatever crackpot theories they've cooked up that anyone challenging them or pointing out facts is taken as more proof for their incoherent nonsense.

This isn't about parents who raise concerns about a teacher and everything about idiots who think they can make sweeping statements about a whole profession because it suits their "mean nasty morning teachers" narrative.

@Shitgovernmentshitparents

But this change about Inset days happened around 30 years ago.... I think many jobs terms and conditions change over that time

@LolaSmiles

So out of interest what happens when a parent complains to a school?

@Shitgovernmentshitparents

But you get paid for working days don’t you?

Holiday days are not paid - even though you get a wage every month. So you have about 160 working days year .

So of course Inset days days would have been taken from your holiday entitlement- over 30 years ago

Silly. In answer to your question, yes teachers get paid for inset days as they’re included in the 195 days per year they have to be in school and are paid for (190 teaching days and 5 inset days).

Come and join us, the water is clearly lovely, as you can see from this picture.

So out of interest what happens when a parent complains to a school?
This is confirming exactly why I said earlier it's best not to engage with goady folk on teacher threads.

Teachers point out thread is goady and made up of people who haven't a clue making silly generalisations based on their own chips on their shoulder.

Someone who makes silly generalisations tries to argue staff think parents must never raise issues.

It's oh so boring.

1. When a parent complains to a schoolthey raise specific issues pertaining to a specific teacher and their child.

2 What threads like this do is have people who haven't a clue deciding they're experts on a whole sector and can make big (inaccurate) generalisations about a whole profession

1. Is reasonable
2. Is a bunch of idiots chatting nonsense

I've not read the whole thread but I've had both teachers and nurses in my friendship circle imply that my job is a walk in the park compared to theirs.
That it's virtually pressure free and easy.
That my 14 hours shifts aren't as bad as my job is so easy and I dont take my work home after.

I do take my work home after but not in the physical sense like a teacher.
I take my work home by reliving some of the horrendous stuff I've seen that day.
Or by waking up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night worried that I may have forgotten to do something crucial as I was so tired after my totally easy 14 hour shift.

Nurses and teachers have very similar attitudes to any other public sector profession in my humble opinion and I find it rather grating.

So you have about 160 working days year
Where do you get that from?
Teachers have 195 days a year of paid work, then 28 days a year of statutory paid holidays.
However their contracts also say " “and such
reasonable additional hours as may be necessary to enable the
effective discharge of the teacher’s professional duties.” Teachers can't be told where and when these professional duties are to be carried out ( so they can be told they need to do X, Y and Z but not that these activities have to be done on a Saturday afternoon in April!)
However, there is no explanation of what are reasonable additional hours and what the professional duties encompass-that will vary from school to school and Head to Head!

spaniel
There's no point explaining facts.
The type of people who aren't in a sector but like to turn up talking silly nonsense and generally making goady generalisations will only take anything you say as some bizarre proof that they're right.

It's pigeon chess.

Being on form for five performances a day for thirty audience members who may or may not participate in the planned work.
Several students with special needs to consider in each group.
Deadlines are rigid. I can't put off planning Monday lesson one as I have to be able to teach it 9am mon for example.
Duty day can mean no loo or drink break until lunch but if you gave a detention the day before you have to go collect those students before you can drink eat or wee.
I've done different jobs before. Nothing like it. Meeting one lunch time per week.
One week only one ppa week two you get four.
And they wonder why people are leaving teaching.

Spaniel. Is it still correct that the contract equates to 32.5 hours per week of directed time in school?

The ‘additional hours as required to carry out the role’ bit relates to hours that you do on top of those and can in theory be done when and where you choose eg at home, in the evening, at weekends?

I don't think I can even summon up the energy to respond to the level of ridiculousness in @silly248 's posts.

I've worked in the private sector and I'm now a teacher and wish I'd never left my old job. I was well respected, confident and well paid. Teaching is awful (ie not respected and my confidence is shattered) and I'm giving it another year only because of the pension and I have small children and the 'holidays' are useful. You can never get away from it as you take so much work home. That along with observations, constant schemes of work changes, ofsted and long unpaid extra hours are making teachers leave.

My friend is an ODP and works long hours but over 4 days. She's tired but loves it and has 3 days to recover and rest. She is also well paid for overtime.

I'm fascinated by people who say "instead of complaining just leave"

A) who is going to teach your children / nurse you when you're sick etc ?

B) how do you think we are going to retain people if nothing changes or are you happy that people with less than 5 years experience do the job in constant churn? For nursing that could mean inexperienced nurses doing complex procedures or people just having to wait for long periods to have those procedures.

C) do you really believe that public sector workers who do "essential" roles should just put up or shut up with the shitty decisions made at govt level? Is it not more important to challenge it and shout about the realities.

As @LolaSmiles says there really is no point. I can only assume that given it's so easy silly will be signing up very soon and we can all learn where we've been going wrong

@silly248 Yes they do, but I'm really not too sure what your point is.

Parents complain about Inset days as if their child lost out by their very existence. When actually children never went to school for 5 extra days - only staff lost time off for the Inset days. They are annoying for parents as they are spread throughout the year and not all authorities are good at communicating when they are in advance making childcare awkward to organise.
If Inset days didn't exist, staff would have 5 days more holiday rather than children have 5 days more at school.

Personally I have no issue in theory with Inset days other than most school leaders use them for utterly pointless crap and we don't actually get those days for anything useful, just sitting in whole staff meetings being spoken at for the day.

Teachers terms and conditions change all the time. In Scotland we have a magical thing called the 'Working Time Agreement' that is supposed to help limit the number of hours we are expected to do beyond the teaching day. The reality is that teachers generally teach as they want to improve the education of children, and as such the government can pretty much do anything knowing full well that the staff will not allow their pupils to suffer because of it. We could, theoretically, refuse to work beyond what the WTA says but in practice the only people this would hurt is the pupils. Not the managers and not the council.
So if the government wants to totally change the curriculum and expect it to be ready to go 5 months before they actually publish the documents for it, staff will work their asses off to make sure their pupils are not suffering because of it.
The Scottish government has made huge changes to the curriculum every year for the last 5 or 6 years. For some subjects more than 50% of the course content has totally changed. Every. Damn. Year. The exam board runs 'launch days' in October and November, they publish the documents in October. We have had the classes since the start of June.
So we have all these new courses to write (because if the government do actually produce teaching materials its generally far too late) AS WELL AS every other part of the job.
Secondary teacher - I see approx. 160 pupils a week :

Lets assume I give them all homework once a week that takes me 15 minutes to mark per pupil - that's mark and leave useful feedback. (usually its shorter for younger pupils, longer for senior pupils).
That's 40 hours a week, just to mark homework. 15 minutes per pupil. To a parent, 15 mins to mark their childs homework sounds like nothing. To the teacher who has 159 other pupils that's a full weeks work just on marking the homework.
So yeah sometimes they get homework once every 2 weeks, sometimes it takes a while to be marked, sometimes I give them the answers and they mark their own/each others the following week, sometimes the feedback isn't as detailed as it should be but hell I work 40 hours a week already without adding an extra 40 just for marking homework. And I've not even got started on planning lessons for courses that have changed, yet again, this year and the new documentation has yet to be published so mostly I am guessing and hoping I am covering the right things.

Why have I not quit yet? Because when someone achieves something in my class that could be as small as improving their grade to a D or talking for the first time in a group discussion or as big as getting in to University or an interview for a job I've played a small part in helping them.

@OhMyDarling but no one is arguing that the reality is shit. What they are saying is that it's maybe not the only job with such demands. Your point has been made repeatedly through the thread but it isn't the point of the thread.

It's the teachers who say their job is so much worse than anyone else's and no one could possibly understand the stress and pressure teachers are under that are the debated point here.