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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Shamima Begum....where do you stand?

999 replies

LeahSMS · 26/09/2019 10:50

What are your thoughts?

AIBU to think she was only a child but unfortunately she’s now considered as a threat so therefore she will never return it’s not only about her safety but the people around her?

Tell me your thoughts

OP posts:
DarlingNikita · 27/09/2019 12:33

morag, apologies, I did misattribute the 'nuanced' comment to you.
I didn't tell anyone is was a nuanced case.

Really, so you would be happy to live next door to a (ex) fanatical ISIS nutjob so long as they have been "deprogrammed" ? Whataboutery. But anyway, I might be doing so, for all I know.

many are in favour of her being tried through due process of law.
Why does that have to be in this country? That isn't my point. My point was that pps are not, as you claim, denying she has any culpability.

Solihooley · 27/09/2019 12:33

She was a child, she was groomed, she should be brought home. I mean, even Jacob Rees-Mogg thinks she deserves sympathy. I think it’s the only time I’ve ever shared that man’s viewpoint.

Contraceptionismyfriend · 27/09/2019 12:33

@ToffeePennie I don't believe she is a British citizen. She had her citizenship stripped.

Xenia · 27/09/2019 12:35

She is not a British citizen. her father lives in Bangladesh and given her age she has a right to apply for a passport there. I would rather we concentrated on helping the yazidis.

ToffeePennie · 27/09/2019 12:39

Thank you @Contraceptionismyfriend
In that case, surely we can allow her to apply for citizenship of Bangladesh or Syria, or wherever her husband is from? In which case she becomes the problem of said country. The alternatives are to leave her be, or arrest her and bring her here surely?

PackingSoapAndWater · 27/09/2019 12:41

And if it is true she is found to have committed an offence against Syria, then she should Stand trail there, however, I understand that currently their justice system is not in a place where it can uphold the law, therefore, allow a British citizen to be detained safely here. She can stand trial in Syria at a later date, surely?

It would never happen. She would have to be extradited to Syria from Britain, and lawyers would argue that she would face unfair treatment and the prospect of unacceptable punishment in Syria as the country currently has the death penalty for the very political and terrorist acts for which SB would most likely face accusation.

The best solution would be an international war crimes tribunal at some point, held in a neutral country.

Contraceptionismyfriend · 27/09/2019 12:43

@ToffeePennie I agree. She is literally not our problem. We have nothing to do with her.
I believe her family were appealing the decision so that could all change.

KitKat1985 · 27/09/2019 12:44

I've seen interviews with her. She has never renounced ISIS or expressed any shame for what she or ISIS has done. I doubt sincerely that if ISIS had been successful that she would want to return to the UK. She wants to come back because ISIS have essentially lost, and now she has no-where that wants her, so she's decided she wants to come 'home'. I don't believe she regrets what she has done, she just regrets that it wasn't successful.

The 'groomed child' argument has merit, but in the interviews I've seen with her as an adult I see zero remorse, and she's old enough now to understand what ISIS have done and what she was a part of.

FishCanFly · 27/09/2019 13:09

sorry but no sympathy here. She didn't run away from home to go to a party. She joined a terrorist organisation.
Comparison with Greta Thunberg is ridiculous. Greta never conspired to murder anyone.

doubtingmorag · 27/09/2019 13:18

Really, so you would be happy to live next door to a (ex) fanatical ISIS nutjob so long as they have been "deprogrammed" ? Whataboutery. But anyway, I might be doing so, for all I know.

You say whataboutery, but i think that in situations like this it is important that people are willing to stand by what they say, demonstrate that they would be willing to directly share the risk their beliefs bring about to everyone in society.

MemphisMum · 27/09/2019 13:31

Let her come back, or try to..... deal with her once she’s at the border

No need to say she’s been made stateless

Just see if she’s clever enough to get herself as far as the uk border, then take it from there

mrspotatohed · 27/09/2019 14:00

She openly admitted she was inspired to join by watching footage of beheadings and did not flinch when she seen her first severed head. She continues to justify the ISIS ideals and atrocities and only wants to come back because she has nowhere else to go. If ISIS still had power all over Syria she certainly wouldn't be whining to come back to the UK, because she WANTED to be there, murdering people with the rest of those ISIS shitbags. I dont care what happens to her as long as she doesnt return here.

DarlingNikita · 27/09/2019 14:14

doubtingmorag, fact is, I can't say for sure can I, because it is hypothetical (or whataboutery).

But, by the token that one or more of my neighbours COULD already be a deprogrammed (ex) fanatical ISIS nutjob or similar, I have to say yes.

And I still don't get why you're so opposed to accepting the amply evidenced existence and efficacy of of deprogramming.

doubtingmorag · 27/09/2019 14:20

And I still don't get why you're so opposed to accepting the amply evidenced existence and efficacy of of deprogramming.

The litmus test here is simply whether you would be prepared to put your own families safety behind your faith in the efficacy of "deprogramming". You are refusing to be drawn on it, would you buy a house where your neighbours were known to be former ISIS operatives from Syria who had since been deprogrammed ?? I think not.

You know it and I know it and everyone reading the thread knows it so bore off with your "amply evidenced existence and efficacy of of deprogramming" claims.

Lweji · 27/09/2019 14:47

I'm quite interested in why some pps are so convinced that she was groomed. Particularly, groomed from a perfectly innocent child to supporting things like beheadings.

I understand some girls and boys were indeed tricked and groomed and got the shock of their lives, but there is very little evidence to support such scenario in this case.

DarlingNikita · 27/09/2019 15:15

Sorry morag but there genuinely isn't another way to respond to your point. Both for stated reasons (which I think you probably do understand) and also, would one ever KNOW if the neighbours were former ISIS operatives from Syria (or anywhere else for that matter)?

Plus, as someone said ages ago, terrorists probably wouldn't bomb their neighbours.

No, I won't bore off as long as you make assertions about what I might or might not do, and what I apparently know and everyone reading the thread apparently knows.

doublebarrellednurse · 27/09/2019 15:25

I understand some girls and boys were indeed tricked and groomed and got the shock of their lives, but there is very little evidence to support such scenario in this case.

I'm pretty sure PREVENT have presented a fair amount of evidence during the hearings into her citizenship.

She grew up in a radical family.
Was taken in by a radical organisation.

That's not a normal choice she's had the opportunity to make is it?

doubtingmorag · 27/09/2019 15:31

and also, would one ever KNOW if the neighbours were former ISIS operatives from Syria (or anywhere else for that matter)?

Well why would such information be hidden ?

Is it the case that the general population are unfairly biased and just need educated about how effective deprogramming is ? Do they need deprogrammed perhaps ?

I asked how you would feel if you did know, the fact that such information would of course be withheld from the great unwashed like us is neither here nor there. Would you trust your family in any situation around known terrorists, even if deprogrammed ?

doublebarrellednurse · 27/09/2019 15:36

@doubtingmorag I think the point is you don't really know who you are living next door to. My neighbour says she's a social worker, could be a right wing extremist plotting to kill my Jewish ass for all I know 🤷🏻‍♀️

Lweji · 27/09/2019 15:42

She grew up in a radical family.
Was taken in by a radical organisation.

That's not a normal choice she's had the opportunity to make is it?

What is your evidence of the first? And even growing up in radical families doesn't make everyone a terrorist.

The second doesn't prove she was groomed into it. Just that she joined them.

The environment she was in may well have led her to join ISIS, but why her and a few girls and not others in similar circumstances?
Something within them must have urged them to join an organization like ISIS. And you don't get enthusiastic about such organizations without some inclination to do it.

AnneElliott · 27/09/2019 15:58

Stacey Dooley is not a representative of the British Government Passthecherrycoke. Any of our civilians would be at serious risk if they entered that camp.

And posters are still saying bring her back without a proper idea of who would do it. Are any of you prepared to volunteer for that? If not, why should you ask anyone else to do it?

Xenia · 27/09/2019 16:02

She is no longer a British citizen. I hightly doubt if she were able to raise the funds to get back to her mother in the UK if the Syrians let her out, that she would not be a cost to the state.

We are already paying her legal aid costs www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/apr/15/jeremy-corbyn-defends-shamima-begum-right-to-legal-aid in the challenge to the withdrawal of her citizenship. I think we made the right decision to withdraw her passport.

Whether she were groomed or not I suspect she will be a big expense to the UK so why have her back when legally we don't have to?

doubtingmorag · 27/09/2019 16:04

I think the point is you don't really know who you are living next door to.

Actually I know my own neighbours very well, but the point is that no one would be happy living next door to a known former ISIS fanatic. Deprogrammed or not. You know this but are trying to not engage with some waffle about how you can never really know etc.

You implied that people ought not to mind.

However, if "deprogramming" is indeed all it is cracked up to be, then it should not to matter whether you know or not, right ?

BenjaminH · 27/09/2019 16:42

@Xenia

@ToffeePennie

She could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship, but Bangladesh don't have to grant it to her.

this isn't over in the future with a different government a different home sec, she can, will, and will probably succeed with a legal case to have her British citizenship given back to her.

lyralalala · 27/09/2019 16:51

Whether she were groomed or not I suspect she will be a big expense to the UK so why have her back when legally we don't have to?

I bet the legal case that sees her get her citizenship back will cost considerably more than anything else.

The case completely disregarded the law on not leaving people stateless and there’s no way it will be dropped as it sets too much of a precedent.

Have Sajid Javid a temporary popularity boost though